Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Thoughts on why I see the flat Earth theory is likely a disinformation campaign  (Read 97357 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4132
  • Reputation: +2431/-528
  • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Thomas must have implicitly believed the earth was flat with a firmament above it, etc. Because after all, what direction is "heaven" from a globe earth? Towards a specific star? Give me a break.
    Here is what St. Thomas Aquinas says in the Summa:

    Quote
    The physicist proves the earth to be round by one means, the astronomer by another: for the latter proves this by means of mathematics, e. g. by the shapes of eclipses, or something of the sort; while the former proves it by means of physics, e. g. by the movement of heavy bodies towards the center, and so forth.

    Ia IIae, Q. 54, Art. 2, ad 2um


    Offline Tradman

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1355
    • Reputation: +863/-287
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Plus many historical and predicted miracles, like Joshua stopping the Sun, the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, and "stars falling from the heavens" at the end of the world, are much more -- problematic -- if the stars are actually fiery gas giants trillions of light-years away, with countless auxiliary effects such as massive radiation and gravitational pull.

    Just remember: the guys that invented the Hawking, Sagan, Einstein, DeGrasse-Tyson fantasy version of the Universe didn't have "strengthen our Faith in God" in mind when they developed it.

    We can't argue this issue in a vacuum -- pardon the pun. It doesn't take place in a vacuum. It must be considered within the broader context of what we know about our world, reality, and the (((enemies of God))).
    All this, and so much more. Flat earth is freedom from global(ist) indoctrination, from Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, from diabolical disorientation, from relativism, from slavery by the elite, from the Big Bang, from evolution, from alien invasion, from dwindling resources and consequent high prices, from global warming, from political manipulation, from government lies, because all these deceptions depend one way or another on this one foundational lie.  


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47006
    • Reputation: +27854/-5168
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • We have the Holy Spirit in Genesis 7 describing the flood as consisting of

    1) the fountains of the deep bursting forth
    AND
    2) the windows of heaven being opened
    AND
    3) rain

    Genesis 7:12

    Quote
    all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the flood gates of heaven were opened: [12] And the rain fell upon the earth

    So then when the flood ended, these 3 causes of the flood were stopped (Genesis 8: 11-12)

    Quote
    The fountains also of the deep, and the flood gates of heaven were shut up, and the rain from heaven was restrained.

    One could argue that the flood gates of heaven being opened were the cause of the rain, and that 3 was caused by 2 and not a separate thing.

    I recall Father Robinson arguing that there could not possibly be enough rain to fall that would cover the entire earth.  Well, that's because we were not talking about simple rain here.

    Somewhere beneath the surface of the earth is something called "the deep", these being the waters beneath the earth, and there were waters also above the firmament and various "windows" or "gates" that could opened or closed.

    This shows a large part of the cosmology of Sacred Scripture in a nutshell.

    This is in no way whatsoever compatible with a planet floating around in the vacuum of space.

    Basically, at the same time, waters flowed up from beneath the earth AND water flowed in through the firmament from the waters above AND rain fell.

    We are in a globe with water above and underneath.  And for all that water to have disappeared relatively quickly, there has to also have been some kind of drainage system to get rid of the water that had flowed in and covered the mountains.

    Father Robison finds this all impossible from the standpoint of modern cosmology ... but his cosmology is all wrong, and that's his problem.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 33022
    • Reputation: +29327/-602
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why? We know what he taught explicitly. See his tracts on Aristotle.

    He also held the common belief in his time that the Pelican tore its own flesh and fed it to its young. St. Thomas used this imagery in the Adoro Te Devote. "Pie Pellicane..."
    We now know it's scientifically unsound, simply not true -- but his heart was in the right place.

    And then there's that pesky bit about the Immaculate Conception...

    We know that St. Thomas philosophically built on Aristotle. But when you're talking about specific scientific facts, were Aristotle and the Greeks in general some kind of infallibles or pinnacles in matters of science? Did God make a promise to a bunch of pagan Greeks that they would never err in matters of natural science? I must have missed that chapter.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline Tradman

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1355
    • Reputation: +863/-287
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is what St. Thomas Aquinas says in the Summa:
    This says nothing except it says what scientists do. This isn't a teaching but a preamble to another point entirely. Also, TA answers question 2 using the word syllogism.  Clearly, he isn't making a case for the globe here.  

    syllogism: an instance of a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn (whether validly or not)


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47006
    • Reputation: +27854/-5168
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Let's be careful about historical globe-earthism.  We'd need to look at the original texts and examine the words.  Just because they us the word round, doesn't prove sphere.  There's talk in Scripture about the "four corners' of the earth (implying a square?).  And the firmament as a dome on top of the earth's surface would also create a world or an earth that as a whole is spherical.  So I wouldn't even necessarily concede that all the citations by the globers actually mean wat they claim they do.

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!1
  • He also held the common belief in his time that the Pelican tore its own flesh and fed it to its young. St. Thomas used this imagery in the Adoro Te Devote. "Pie Pellicane..."
    We now know it's scientifically unsound, simply not true -- but his heart was in the right place.

    And then there's that pesky bit about the Immaculate Conception...

    We know that St. Thomas philosophically built on Aristotle. But when you're talking about specific scientific facts, were Aristotle and the Greeks in general some kind of infallibles or pinnacles in matters of science? Did God make a promise to a bunch of pagan Greeks that they would never err in matters of natural science? I must have missed that chapter.

    That's not the point. You said that St. Thomas might implicitly think in FE terms. And I said that he explicitly taught GE.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Tradman

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1355
    • Reputation: +863/-287
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's not the point. You said that St. Thomas might implicitly think in FE terms. And I said that he explicitly taught GE.
    Thomas discusses at length the question of round vs. flat and comes up with the conclusion that if earth is stationary it must be flat.  


    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Thomas discusses at length the question of round vs. flat and comes up with the conclusion that if earth is stationary it must be flat. 

    Could you please give the source of this information?!
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • https://books.google.com/books?id=cR7qTyH_EfMC&pg=RA1-PA205&dq=Necesse+est+terram,+ad+hoc+quod+quiescat,+habere+figuram+latam&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiSx-WUysLnAhW-knIEHQGPDZEQ6wEwA3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=Necesse%20est%20terram%2C%20ad%20hoc%20quod%20quiescat%2C%20habere%20figuram%20latam&f=false


    Quote
    493. Secundam rationem ponit ibi: sed adhuc etc.; dicens quod adhuc addunt rationem ad idem, dicentes quod necesse est terram, ad hoc quod quiescat, habere figuram latam. Nam figura sphaerica facile mobilis est, quia in modico tangit superficiem: sed figura lata secundum se totam tangit superficiem, et ideo est apta ad quietem. Et ne credatur quod haec causa quietis terrae communiter ab omnibus assignetur, subiungit quod de motu et quiete terrae multi modi dicuntur, ut patebit ex his quae infra dicentur.

    Quote
    493. He gives a second argument at but they have another argument [352], and says that they add a further argument for the same, namely, that if the earth is to be at rest, it has to be flat. For a spherical shape is easy to move, because so little of it is in contact with a plane; but a wide shape is totally in contact with a plane, and is consequently apt for rest. And lest anyone believe that this explanation of the earth's rest is generally assigned by everyone, he adds that there are many different ways in which the motion and rest of the earth has been conceived, as will be plain from what will be said below.

    aquinas.cc


    Opponents of Aristotle say what you ascribe to St. Thomas.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8166
    • Reputation: +2544/-1122
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • You said that St. Thomas might implicitly think in FE terms. And I said that he explicitly taught GE.

    Where?  In that "terra rotunda est" quote you and others seem to endlessly and uselessly cite in support of your bogus assertion?

    You (and others) offered it up; I smashed it.  Get over it.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where?  In that "terra rotunda est" quote you and others seem to endlessly and uselessly cite in support of your bogus assertion?

    You (and others) offered it up; I smashed it.  Get over it.

    Sorry, but you seem to mistake me for someone else.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Tradman

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1355
    • Reputation: +863/-287
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where?  In that "terra rotunda est" quote you and others seem to endlessly and uselessly cite in support of your bogus assertion?

    You (and others) offered it up; I smashed it.  Get over it.
    Smashed? Hardly. Thomas doesn't argue that if earth is not in motion it isn't flat. He is still pondering whether or not it is motion but recognizes the argument is valid. The argument is there. Motion of earth is thoroughly debunked by St. Bellarmine.  Further, Thomas' discussion continues, and you haven't addressed the half of it.    

    Offline gladius_veritatis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 8166
    • Reputation: +2544/-1122
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry, but you seem to mistake me for someone else.

    You linked a section of the Summa wherein the pertinent quote is "terra rotunda est..."  There is no mistake.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."