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Author Topic: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory  (Read 5164 times)

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Offline cassini

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Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
« on: June 17, 2017, 09:03:11 AM »
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  • The heliocentric/geocentric conflict in history came about ONLY because the Bible reveals geocentrism. The Church acted only in its interest in stopping personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

    Lucifer fooled Adam and Eve into believing they could be like gods, knowing everything. Adam and Eve repented and God forgave them. When Cain murdered Abel and was cast out his lot came under the influence of Lucifer's 'false-information' machine that formed all the false religions of the world.

    By the sixteenth century man was ready to accept the sun-god once again by way of its Luciferian disguise Copernicanism.
    Observations were interpreted as heliocentric proofs, and Isaac Newton's invented CAUSE for gravity was promulgated by Lucifer's false-information society the MASONS as a scientific fact. Human PRIDE in their own ability to KNOW ALL caught on, EVEN AMONG THE ELECT. Scriptural geocentrism was jettisoned and replaced by human reasoning heliocentrism. Today, even by posters on this Catholic forum, Scriptural geocentrism is laughed at in order that none chose revelation over human reason even though it has more evidence for it than heliocentrism has.

    Out of nowhere came this flat-earth theory, claiming it too is revealed in Scripture. Yes they can quote some Fathers, some saints, and some philosophers who also held the Bible teaches a flat earth. Then, like the heliocentric/geocentric science, they can show reasons as to its credibility. However, their theory needs to deny so much it falls into the ridiculous. All space photos of a global earth are fakes according to their theory, the science of geodesy is useless, and astronomical distances of the earth, sun, moon and planets have to be made fit their mathematics and not according to 500 years of measuring and planes and ships may think they are moving around a global-earth when in fact they are going in flat-earth circles. No doubt they will continue to insist their science is credible and that is their position.

    Fair enough, but for me theology is the queen of science and in the above debate I prefer the Church's truth to human reasoning that since Adam and Eve has been corrupted to reject the first dogma of the Catholic Church: "God can be known by the things that he made." Heliocentrism led the world to a natural Big-Bang that suits atheism and their concocted science. Geocentrism has no possible explanation other than it was created that way by God.

    No doubt a flat-earth would also be evidence for God, if it was true. But St Augustine warned us not to make the Bible say something that it does not lest the evidence shows it to be wrong that in turn threatens the credibility of the Bible. So the Church made some rules. Only that which ALL OF THE FATHERS say the Bible reveals is infallible. All of the Fathers read the bible as revealing geocentrism. The Church of 1616 decreed this was dogma.
    Flat-earthism has no UNANIMOUS agreement of all the Fathers. The Church has never decreed it as dogma, so theologically it has nothing to support it except the few who say it has. As yet I have never seen any such decrees..

    So, what else is there to help us as Catholics to base what shape our earth is. Well personally I love the statue of the Child of Prague. ‘Devotion to this statue began in the year 1556 when Maria Manriquez de Lara brought the image of the infant Jesus, a family heirloom, to Czechoslovakia from Spain on the occasion of her marriage to Vratislav of Pernstyn. It is housed now in the church of Our Lady of Victory in Prague and is an object of veneration in many other countries.’ Note the globe of the earth held steady at rest in the hands of the child Jesus.    

    I recall the flat-earthers saying the child could be holding the flat earth facing out giving the impression of a globe. If I could I would post a picture of that statue here showing it is indeed a globe and nothing else.

    Then the other day I was reading about the MIRACULOUS MEDAL.

    In the above I found:

    The Second Apparition
    Four months passed until Our Lady returned to Rue du Bac. Here are Catherine's own words describing the apparition:
    "On the 27th of November, 1830 ... while making my meditation in profound silence ... I seemed to hear on the right hand side of the sanctuary something like the rustling of a silk dress. Glancing in that direction, I perceived the Blessed Virgin standing near St. Joseph's picture. Her height was medium and Her countenance, indescribably beautiful. She was dressed in a robe the color of the dawn, high-necked, with plain sleeves. Her head was covered with a white veil, which floated over Her shoulders down to her feet. Her feet rested upon a globe, or rather one half of a globe, for that was all that could be seen. Her hands which were on a level with Her waist, held in an easy manner another globe, a figure of the world. Her eyes were raised to Heaven, and Her countenance beamed with light as She offered the globe to Our Lord.
    "As I was busy contemplating Her, the Blessed Virgin fixed Her eyes upon me, and a voice said in the depths of my heart: ' This globe which you see represents the whole world, especially France, and each person in particular.'


    For me then, this is heaven calling and telling, my theological proof that Flat-earthism is not true, and perhaps being used by Satan (NOT BY THE POSTERS I STATE) to undermine the progress being made in exposing SCIENTIFICALLY AND THEOLOGICALLY the Galileo case as one of the greatest scandals in history, suggesting the Church was wrong and Galileo was right when in fact ALL THE SCIENTIFIC AND THEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE proves the Bible was right and Lucifer's science was A LIE.

    To undermine this breakthrough by insisting on a flat-earth geocentrism would seem to me to be a disaster.




    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #1 on: June 17, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »
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  • The heliocentric/geocentric conflict in history came about ONLY because the Bible reveals geocentrism. The Church acted only in its interest in stopping personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

    Lucifer fooled Adam and Eve into believing they could be like gods, knowing everything. Adam and Eve repented and God forgave them. When Cain murdered Abel and was cast out his lot came under the influence of Lucifer's 'false-information' machine that formed all the false religions of the world.

    By the sixteenth century man was ready to accept the sun-god once again by way of its Luciferian disguise Copernicanism.
    Observations were interpreted as heliocentric proofs, and Isaac Newton's invented CAUSE for gravity was promulgated by Lucifer's false-information society the MASONS as a scientific fact. Human PRIDE in their own ability to KNOW ALL caught on, EVEN AMONG THE ELECT. Scriptural geocentrism was jettisoned and replaced by human reasoning heliocentrism. Today, even by posters on this Catholic forum, Scriptural geocentrism is laughed at in order that none chose revelation over human reason even though it has more evidence for it than heliocentrism has.

    Out of nowhere came this flat-earth theory, claiming it too is revealed in Scripture. Yes they can quote some Fathers, some saints, and some philosophers who also held the Bible teaches a flat earth. Then, like the heliocentric/geocentric science, they can show reasons as to its credibility. However, their theory needs to deny so much it falls into the ridiculous. All space photos of a global earth are fakes according to their theory, the science of geodesy is useless, and astronomical distances of the earth, sun, moon and planets have to be made fit their mathematics and not according to 500 years of measuring and planes and ships may think they are moving around a global-earth when in fact they are going in flat-earth circles. No doubt they will continue to insist their science is credible and that is their position.

    Fair enough, but for me theology is the queen of science and in the above debate I prefer the Church's truth to human reasoning that since Adam and Eve has been corrupted to reject the first dogma of the Catholic Church: "God can be known by the things that he made." Heliocentrism led the world to a natural Big-Bang that suits atheism and their concocted science. Geocentrism has no possible explanation other than it was created that way by God.

    No doubt a flat-earth would also be evidence for God, if it was true. But St Augustine warned us not to make the Bible say something that it does not lest the evidence shows it to be wrong that in turn threatens the credibility of the Bible. So the Church made some rules. Only that which ALL OF THE FATHERS say the Bible reveals is infallible. All of the Fathers read the bible as revealing geocentrism. The Church of 1616 decreed this was dogma.
    Flat-earthism has no UNANIMOUS agreement of all the Fathers. The Church has never decreed it as dogma, so theologically it has nothing to support it except the few who say it has. As yet I have never seen any such decrees..

    So, what else is there to help us as Catholics to base what shape our earth is. Well personally I love the statue of the Child of Prague. ‘Devotion to this statue began in the year 1556 when Maria Manriquez de Lara brought the image of the infant Jesus, a family heirloom, to Czechoslovakia from Spain on the occasion of her marriage to Vratislav of Pernstyn. It is housed now in the church of Our Lady of Victory in Prague and is an object of veneration in many other countries.’ Note the globe of the earth held steady at rest in the hands of the child Jesus.    

    I recall the flat-earthers saying the child could be holding the flat earth facing out giving the impression of a globe. If I could I would post a picture of that statue here showing it is indeed a globe and nothing else.

    Then the other day I was reading about the MIRACULOUS MEDAL.

    In the above I found:

    The Second Apparition
    Four months passed until Our Lady returned to Rue du Bac. Here are Catherine's own words describing the apparition:
    "On the 27th of November, 1830 ... while making my meditation in profound silence ... I seemed to hear on the right hand side of the sanctuary something like the rustling of a silk dress. Glancing in that direction, I perceived the Blessed Virgin standing near St. Joseph's picture. Her height was medium and Her countenance, indescribably beautiful. She was dressed in a robe the color of the dawn, high-necked, with plain sleeves. Her head was covered with a white veil, which floated over Her shoulders down to her feet. Her feet rested upon a globe, or rather one half of a globe, for that was all that could be seen. Her hands which were on a level with Her waist, held in an easy manner another globe, a figure of the world. Her eyes were raised to Heaven, and Her countenance beamed with light as She offered the globe to Our Lord.
    "As I was busy contemplating Her, the Blessed Virgin fixed Her eyes upon me, and a voice said in the depths of my heart: ' This globe which you see represents the whole world, especially France, and each person in particular.'


    For me then, this is heaven calling and telling, my theological proof that Flat-earthism is not true, and perhaps being used by Satan (NOT BY THE POSTERS I STATE) to undermine the progress being made in exposing SCIENTIFICALLY AND THEOLOGICALLY the Galileo case as one of the greatest scandals in history, suggesting the Church was wrong and Galileo was right when in fact ALL THE SCIENTIFIC AND THEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE proves the Bible was right and Lucifer's science was A LIE.

    To undermine this breakthrough by insisting on a flat-earth geocentrism would seem to me to be a disaster.
    Our Lady was standing on a half-globe? The dome.  Further evidence of flat earth.  The world in its entirety is said by the fathers to be a globe, but they explain that the dome, flat earth in the middle, and the pit of hell form this entire universe, which is a globe.  The people however, live on the flat plane in the middle. 


    Offline OHCA

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #2 on: June 17, 2017, 09:37:03 PM »
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  • Our Lady was standing on a half-globe? The dome.  Further evidence of flat earth.  The world in its entirety is said by the fathers to be a globe, but they explain that the dome, flat earth in the middle, and the pit of hell form this entire universe, which is a globe.  The people however, live on the flat plane in the middle. 

    For somebody who claims to believe the earth is flat, you sure spend a lot of time spinning in circles.  I've been gone for months--long enough to travel AROUND the world--and come back and you're still blowing the same hot air.  Sorry I didn't get around to taking a bottle of whiteout and an ink pen to correct the errors that you pointed out in the Douay-Rheims.  I'm pretty sure that Luther & Prot Co. have some books worded more to your liking though.

    Offline hismajesty

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    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #4 on: June 18, 2017, 02:28:17 PM »
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  • "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 08:59:14 AM »
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  • The Doctrine of Geocentrism by Andrew White:


    St Clement of Alexandria demonstrated that the altar in the Jєωιѕн Tabernacle was “a symbol of the earth placed in the middle of the universe:” nothing more was needed; the geocentric theory was fully adopted by the Church and universally held to agree with the letter and spirit of Scripture. Wrought into this foundation, and based upon it, there was developed in the middle ages, mainly out of fragments of Chaldean and other early theories preserved in the Hebrew Scriptures, a new sacred system of astronomy, which became one of the great treasures of the universal Church – the last word of revelation. Three great men mainly reared this structure. First was the unknown who gave to the world the treatises ascribed to Dionysius the Areopagite. It was unhesitatingly believed that these were the work of St Paul’s Athenian convert, and therefore virtually of St Paul himself. Though now known to be spurious [sic], they were then considered a treasure of inspiration, and an emperor of the East sent them to an emperor of the West as the most worthy of gifts. In the ninth century they were widely circulated in Western Europe, and became a fruitful source of thought especially on the whole celestial hierarchy. Thus the old ideas of astronomy were vastly developed, and the heavenly hosts were classed and named in accordance with indications scattered through the sacred Scriptures. 

         ‘The next of these three great theologians was Peter Lombard, Professor at the University of Paris. About the middle of the twelfth century he gave forth his collection of Sentences, or statements by the Fathers, and this remained until the end of the Middle Ages the universal manual of theology. In it was especially developed the theological view of man’s relation to the universe. The author tells the world: “Just as man is made for the sake of God – that is, that he may serve Him, - so the universe is made for the sake of man, that is, that it may serve him; therefore is man placed at the middle point of the universe that he may both serve and be served.”

         ‘The great triad of thinkers culminated in St Thomas Aquinas – the sainted theologian, the glory of the mediaeval Church, the ‘Angelic Doctor,’ the most marvellous intellect [since] Aristotle; he to whom it was believed that an image of the crucified had spoken words praising his writings. Large of mind, strong, acute, yet just – even more than just – to his opponents, he gave forth, in the latter half of the thirteenth century, his Cyclopaedia of Theology, the Summa Theologica. In this St Thomas carried the sacred theory of the universe to its full development. With great power and clearness he brought the whole vast system, material and spiritual, into its relations to God and man.

         ‘Thus was the vast system developed by these three leaders of mediaeval thought; and now came the man who wrought it yet more deeply into European belief, the poet divinely inspired who made the system part of the world’s life. Pictured by Dante, the empyrean and the concentric heavens, paradise, purgatory, and hell, were seen by all; the God Triune, seated on his throne upon the circle of the heavens, as real as the Pope seated in the chair of St Peter; the seraphim, cherubim, and thrones, surrounding the Almighty, as real as the cardinals surrounding the Pope; the three great order of angels in heaven, as real as the three great orders, bishops, priests, and deacons, on earth; and the whole system of spheres, each revolving within the one above it, and all moving about the earth, subject to the primum mobile, as real as the feudal system of western Europe, subject to the Emperor.

        ‘Let us look into this vast creation – the highest achievement of theology – somewhat more closely. Its first feature shows a development out of earlier theological ideas. The earth is no longer a flat plain enclosed by four walls and solidly vaulted above, as theologians of previous centuries had believed it [?], under the inspiration of Cosmas [Indicopleustes] 550AD; it is no longer a mere flat disk, with sun, moon, and stars hung up to give it light, as the earlier cathedral sculptors had figured it; it has become a globe at the centre of the universe. Encompassing it are successive transparent spheres, rotated by angels about the earth, and each carrying one or more of the heavenly bodies with it: that nearest the earth carrying the moon; the next, Mercury; the next, Venus; the next, the sun; the next three, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn; the eighth carrying the fixed stars. The ninth was the primum mobile, and enclosing all was the tenth heaven, the Empyrean. This was immovable, a boundary between creation and the great outer void; and here, in a light which no one can enter, the Triune God sat enthroned, the ‘music of the spheres’ rising to Him as they moved. Thus was the old heathen doctrine of the spheres made Christian.

    So much for the claim that the CHURCH held to a flat earth.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #6 on: June 27, 2017, 09:58:33 AM »
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  • The Doctrine of Geocentrism by Andrew White:


    St Clement of Alexandria demonstrated that the altar in the Jєωιѕн Tabernacle was “a symbol of the earth placed in the middle of the universe:” nothing more was needed; the geocentric theory was fully adopted by the Church and universally held to agree with the letter and spirit of Scripture. Wrought into this foundation, and based upon it, there was developed in the middle ages, mainly out of fragments of Chaldean and other early theories preserved in the Hebrew Scriptures, a new sacred system of astronomy, which became one of the great treasures of the universal Church – the last word of revelation. Three great men mainly reared this structure. First was the unknown who gave to the world the treatises ascribed to Dionysius the Areopagite. It was unhesitatingly believed that these were the work of St Paul’s Athenian convert, and therefore virtually of St Paul himself. Though now known to be spurious [sic], they were then considered a treasure of inspiration, and an emperor of the East sent them to an emperor of the West as the most worthy of gifts. In the ninth century they were widely circulated in Western Europe, and became a fruitful source of thought especially on the whole celestial hierarchy. Thus the old ideas of astronomy were vastly developed, and the heavenly hosts were classed and named in accordance with indications scattered through the sacred Scriptures.

        ‘The next of these three great theologians was Peter Lombard, Professor at the University of Paris. About the middle of the twelfth century he gave forth his collection of Sentences, or statements by the Fathers, and this remained until the end of the Middle Ages the universal manual of theology. In it was especially developed the theological view of man’s relation to the universe. The author tells the world: “Just as man is made for the sake of God – that is, that he may serve Him, - so the universe is made for the sake of man, that is, that it may serve him; therefore is man placed at the middle point of the universe that he may both serve and be served.”

        ‘The great triad of thinkers culminated in St Thomas Aquinas – the sainted theologian, the glory of the mediaeval Church, the ‘Angelic Doctor,’ the most marvellous intellect [since] Aristotle; he to whom it was believed that an image of the crucified had spoken words praising his writings. Large of mind, strong, acute, yet just – even more than just – to his opponents, he gave forth, in the latter half of the thirteenth century, his Cyclopaedia of Theology, the Summa Theologica. In this St Thomas carried the sacred theory of the universe to its full development. With great power and clearness he brought the whole vast system, material and spiritual, into its relations to God and man.

        ‘Thus was the vast system developed by these three leaders of mediaeval thought; and now came the man who wrought it yet more deeply into European belief, the poet divinely inspired who made the system part of the world’s life. Pictured by Dante, the empyrean and the concentric heavens, paradise, purgatory, and hell, were seen by all; the God Triune, seated on his throne upon the circle of the heavens, as real as the Pope seated in the chair of St Peter; the seraphim, cherubim, and thrones, surrounding the Almighty, as real as the cardinals surrounding the Pope; the three great order of angels in heaven, as real as the three great orders, bishops, priests, and deacons, on earth; and the whole system of spheres, each revolving within the one above it, and all moving about the earth, subject to the primum mobile, as real as the feudal system of western Europe, subject to the Emperor.

       ‘Let us look into this vast creation – the highest achievement of theology – somewhat more closely. Its first feature shows a development out of earlier theological ideas. The earth is no longer a flat plain enclosed by four walls and solidly vaulted above, as theologians of previous centuries had believed it [?], under the inspiration of Cosmas [Indicopleustes] 550AD; it is no longer a mere flat disk, with sun, moon, and stars hung up to give it light, as the earlier cathedral sculptors had figured it; it has become a globe at the centre of the universe. Encompassing it are successive transparent spheres, rotated by angels about the earth, and each carrying one or more of the heavenly bodies with it: that nearest the earth carrying the moon; the next, Mercury; the next, Venus; the next, the sun; the next three, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn; the eighth carrying the fixed stars. The ninth was the primum mobile, and enclosing all was the tenth heaven, the Empyrean. This was immovable, a boundary between creation and the great outer void; and here, in a light which no one can enter, the Triune God sat enthroned, the ‘music of the spheres’ rising to Him as they moved. Thus was the old heathen doctrine of the spheres made Christian.

    So much for the claim that the CHURCH held to a flat earth.

    Do you have a link for the above? I can't find anything online called, "The Doctrine of Geocentrism by Andrew White."
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 10:01:42 AM »
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  • The Doctrine of Geocentrism by Andrew White:


    St Clement of Alexandria demonstrated that the altar in the Jєωιѕн Tabernacle was “a symbol of the earth placed in the middle of the universe:” nothing more was needed; the geocentric theory was fully adopted by the Church and universally held to agree with the letter and spirit of Scripture. Wrought into this foundation, and based upon it, there was developed in the middle ages, mainly out of fragments of Chaldean and other early theories preserved in the Hebrew Scriptures, a new sacred system of astronomy, which became one of the great treasures of the universal Church – the last word of revelation. Three great men mainly reared this structure. First was the unknown who gave to the world the treatises ascribed to Dionysius the Areopagite. It was unhesitatingly believed that these were the work of St Paul’s Athenian convert, and therefore virtually of St Paul himself. Though now known to be spurious [sic], they were then considered a treasure of inspiration, and an emperor of the East sent them to an emperor of the West as the most worthy of gifts. In the ninth century they were widely circulated in Western Europe, and became a fruitful source of thought especially on the whole celestial hierarchy. Thus the old ideas of astronomy were vastly developed, and the heavenly hosts were classed and named in accordance with indications scattered through the sacred Scriptures.

        ‘The next of these three great theologians was Peter Lombard, Professor at the University of Paris. About the middle of the twelfth century he gave forth his collection of Sentences, or statements by the Fathers, and this remained until the end of the Middle Ages the universal manual of theology. In it was especially developed the theological view of man’s relation to the universe. The author tells the world: “Just as man is made for the sake of God – that is, that he may serve Him, - so the universe is made for the sake of man, that is, that it may serve him; therefore is man placed at the middle point of the universe that he may both serve and be served.”

        ‘The great triad of thinkers culminated in St Thomas Aquinas – the sainted theologian, the glory of the mediaeval Church, the ‘Angelic Doctor,’ the most marvellous intellect [since] Aristotle; he to whom it was believed that an image of the crucified had spoken words praising his writings. Large of mind, strong, acute, yet just – even more than just – to his opponents, he gave forth, in the latter half of the thirteenth century, his Cyclopaedia of Theology, the Summa Theologica. In this St Thomas carried the sacred theory of the universe to its full development. With great power and clearness he brought the whole vast system, material and spiritual, into its relations to God and man.

        ‘Thus was the vast system developed by these three leaders of mediaeval thought; and now came the man who wrought it yet more deeply into European belief, the poet divinely inspired who made the system part of the world’s life. Pictured by Dante, the empyrean and the concentric heavens, paradise, purgatory, and hell, were seen by all; the God Triune, seated on his throne upon the circle of the heavens, as real as the Pope seated in the chair of St Peter; the seraphim, cherubim, and thrones, surrounding the Almighty, as real as the cardinals surrounding the Pope; the three great order of angels in heaven, as real as the three great orders, bishops, priests, and deacons, on earth; and the whole system of spheres, each revolving within the one above it, and all moving about the earth, subject to the primum mobile, as real as the feudal system of western Europe, subject to the Emperor.

       ‘Let us look into this vast creation – the highest achievement of theology – somewhat more closely. Its first feature shows a development out of earlier theological ideas. The earth is no longer a flat plain enclosed by four walls and solidly vaulted above, as theologians of previous centuries had believed it [?], under the inspiration of Cosmas [Indicopleustes] 550AD; it is no longer a mere flat disk, with sun, moon, and stars hung up to give it light, as the earlier cathedral sculptors had figured it; it has become a globe at the centre of the universe. Encompassing it are successive transparent spheres, rotated by angels about the earth, and each carrying one or more of the heavenly bodies with it: that nearest the earth carrying the moon; the next, Mercury; the next, Venus; the next, the sun; the next three, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn; the eighth carrying the fixed stars. The ninth was the primum mobile, and enclosing all was the tenth heaven, the Empyrean. This was immovable, a boundary between creation and the great outer void; and here, in a light which no one can enter, the Triune God sat enthroned, the ‘music of the spheres’ rising to Him as they moved. Thus was the old heathen doctrine of the spheres made Christian.

    So much for the claim that the CHURCH held to a flat earth
    The text outlined in blue does not say what the person is posting here.  Cosmas of Indiocopleustes INSISTS that the earth is flat and spends his entire book, Christian Topography proving it.  Also, the fact that it says, " it has become a globe at the centre of the universe." is proof that it was once held otherwise but suddenly changed.  Not only that, it doesn't say "why" it has become a globe.  

    When you think you have proof of something, read further, you've shown nothing.  


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 10:11:08 AM »
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  • Do you have a link for the above? I can't find anything online called, "The Doctrine of Geocentrism by Andrew White."
    Meg, the book is called "A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom"  It is available online to read for free.  White is a Protestant historian set on discrediting the Church for believing the earth was flat.  You'll find several quotes by Church Fathers displayed in a way to make them look stupid for believing it.  White does not prove earth is not flat.  In fact, because of his antagonism toward the Church, he winds up proving in ancient Christendom that earth has always been considered flat by the Church...But, without proof White comes to the conclusion that somehow, science came along and proved them wrong.  

    Here's a link: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/505

    Chapter II is the one that deals with the subject.

    Even Wiki's summation points out that "The church fathers favoured the idea of a solid roof or firmament over the earth..." 

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 10:34:52 AM »
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  • This depiction can be found in many older bibles and has long been considered to be a representation of earth.  It is the literal interpretation of scripture and was held by Catholics for centuries, especially prior to the Galileo Affair.  In his book Christian Topography by Cosmas Indiocopleustes, it was the pagans who opposed the Church's understanding saying that earth was a globe and was the reason Cosmas penned the book.  The fact that Cosmas fought so vigilantly for flat earth using scripture, and that the pagans used their sorcery and demonic philosophies to prove round earth, one can easily come to the conclusion that it is absolutely necessary to believe a scripture's literal explanation of flat earth.  The first Tabernacle was a microcosm of what Moses observed after God showed him the earth.  The description shows that the pillars, domed ceiling, altar and candles represented those things found in creation.  Church architecture reflects this pattern as well. The pillars of the earth are represented in microcosm by the pillars in Churches. The domed ceilings represent the firmament. The altar represents the flat earth. Bread and wine represent the abundance of God's goodness to man.  The candles represented the stars.  Even the scalloped edge of the altar cloth is meant to represent the oceans.  Cosmas goes into great detail using scripture to reveal a very beautiful landscape that both enlightens and edifies and culminates in a beautiful explanation of the Eucharist, Mary, and God's plan for man.  After reading this beautiful Catholic book, it is impossible to assume that earth is a baal.       

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 11:34:04 AM »
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  • Meg, the book is called "A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom"  It is available online to read for free.  White is a Protestant historian set on discrediting the Church for believing the earth was flat.  You'll find several quotes by Church Fathers displayed in a way to make them look stupid for believing it.  White does not prove earth is not flat.  In fact, because of his antagonism toward the Church, he winds up proving in ancient Christendom that earth has always been considered flat by the Church...But, without proof White comes to the conclusion that somehow, science came along and proved them wrong.  

    Here's a link: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/505

    Chapter II is the one that deals with the subject.

    Even Wiki's summation points out that "The church fathers favoured the idea of a solid roof or firmament over the earth..."


    Thanks.

    The writing style of this Andrew White fellow is difficult for me to understand, but he seems to be promoting Enlightenment principles. But then he was a Protestant.

    In the very last chapter, chapter XX, in the last section of it, titled, "Vl: Reconstructive force for scientific criticism," Andrew White writes:

    "If then, modern science in general has acted powerfully to dissolve away the older theories and dogmas of the older theological interpretations, it has also been active in a reconstruction and recrystallization of truth; and very powerful in this reconstruction have been the evolution doctrines which has grown out of the work of men like Darwin and Spencer."

    That pretty much sums it up for me. He can in no way speak to matters of Church teaching in any qualified way at all. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 01:31:28 PM »
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  • Thanks.

    The writing style of this Andrew White fellow is difficult for me to understand, but he seems to be promoting Enlightenment principles. But then he was a Protestant.

    In the very last chapter, chapter XX, in the last section of it, titled, "Vl: Reconstructive force for scientific criticism," Andrew White writes:

    "If then, modern science in general has acted powerfully to dissolve away the older theories and dogmas of the older theological interpretations, it has also been active in a reconstruction and recrystallization of truth; and very powerful in this reconstruction have been the evolution doctrines which has grown out of the work of men like Darwin and Spencer."

    That pretty much sums it up for me. He can in no way speak to matters of Church teaching in any qualified way at all.
    Agreed. What's interesting is that White uses fascinating quotes from the saints proving the Church believed in a flat earth. He ultimately manages to prove he prefers the pagan science of Darwin and Spencer but without showing how the pagan view trumped Catholic teaching he disparages. 

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #12 on: June 27, 2017, 05:11:48 PM »
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  • Our Lady was standing on a half-globe? The dome.  Further evidence of flat earth.  The world in its entirety is said by the fathers to be a globe, but they explain that the dome, flat earth in the middle, and the pit of hell form this entire universe, which is a globe.  The people however, live on the flat plane in the middle.
    :applause:
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #13 on: June 27, 2017, 05:21:30 PM »
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  • The heliocentric/geocentric conflict in history came about ONLY because the Bible reveals geocentrism. The Church acted only in its interest in stopping personal interpretation of the Scriptures.

    Lucifer fooled Adam and Eve into believing they could be like gods, knowing everything. Adam and Eve repented and God forgave them. When Cain murdered Abel and was cast out his lot came under the influence of Lucifer's 'false-information' machine that formed all the false religions of the world.

    By the sixteenth century man was ready to accept the sun-god once again by way of its Luciferian disguise Copernicanism.
    Observations were interpreted as heliocentric proofs, and Isaac Newton's invented CAUSE for gravity was promulgated by Lucifer's false-information society the MASONS as a scientific fact. Human PRIDE in their own ability to KNOW ALL caught on, EVEN AMONG THE ELECT. Scriptural geocentrism was jettisoned and replaced by human reasoning heliocentrism. Today, even by posters on this Catholic forum, Scriptural geocentrism is laughed at in order that none chose revelation over human reason even though it has more evidence for it than heliocentrism has.

    Out of nowhere came this flat-earth theory, claiming it too is revealed in Scripture. Yes they can quote some Fathers, some saints, and some philosophers who also held the Bible teaches a flat earth. Then, like the heliocentric/geocentric science, they can show reasons as to its credibility. However, their theory needs to deny so much it falls into the ridiculous. All space photos of a global earth are fakes according to their theory, the science of geodesy is useless, and astronomical distances of the earth, sun, moon and planets have to be made fit their mathematics and not according to 500 years of measuring and planes and ships may think they are moving around a global-earth when in fact they are going in flat-earth circles. No doubt they will continue to insist their science is credible and that is their position.

    Fair enough, but for me theology is the queen of science and in the above debate I prefer the Church's truth to human reasoning that since Adam and Eve has been corrupted to reject the first dogma of the Catholic Church: "God can be known by the things that he made." Heliocentrism led the world to a natural Big-Bang that suits atheism and their concocted science. Geocentrism has no possible explanation other than it was created that way by God.

    No doubt a flat-earth would also be evidence for God, if it was true. But St Augustine warned us not to make the Bible say something that it does not lest the evidence shows it to be wrong that in turn threatens the credibility of the Bible. So the Church made some rules. Only that which ALL OF THE FATHERS say the Bible reveals is infallible. All of the Fathers read the bible as revealing geocentrism. The Church of 1616 decreed this was dogma.
    Flat-earthism has no UNANIMOUS agreement of all the Fathers. The Church has never decreed it as dogma, so theologically it has nothing to support it except the few who say it has. As yet I have never seen any such decrees..

    So, what else is there to help us as Catholics to base what shape our earth is. Well personally I love the statue of the Child of Prague. ‘Devotion to this statue began in the year 1556 when Maria Manriquez de Lara brought the image of the infant Jesus, a family heirloom, to Czechoslovakia from Spain on the occasion of her marriage to Vratislav of Pernstyn. It is housed now in the church of Our Lady of Victory in Prague and is an object of veneration in many other countries.’ Note the globe of the earth held steady at rest in the hands of the child Jesus.    

    I recall the flat-earthers saying the child could be holding the flat earth facing out giving the impression of a globe. If I could I would post a picture of that statue here showing it is indeed a globe and nothing else.

    Then the other day I was reading about the MIRACULOUS MEDAL.

    In the above I found:

    The Second Apparition
    Four months passed until Our Lady returned to Rue du Bac. Here are Catherine's own words describing the apparition:
    "On the 27th of November, 1830 ... while making my meditation in profound silence ... I seemed to hear on the right hand side of the sanctuary something like the rustling of a silk dress. Glancing in that direction, I perceived the Blessed Virgin standing near St. Joseph's picture. Her height was medium and Her countenance, indescribably beautiful. She was dressed in a robe the color of the dawn, high-necked, with plain sleeves. Her head was covered with a white veil, which floated over Her shoulders down to her feet. Her feet rested upon a globe, or rather one half of a globe, for that was all that could be seen. Her hands which were on a level with Her waist, held in an easy manner another globe, a figure of the world. Her eyes were raised to Heaven, and Her countenance beamed with light as She offered the globe to Our Lord.
    "As I was busy contemplating Her, the Blessed Virgin fixed Her eyes upon me, and a voice said in the depths of my heart: ' This globe which you see represents the whole world, especially France, and each person in particular.'


    For me then, this is heaven calling and telling, my theological proof that Flat-earthism is not true, and perhaps being used by Satan (NOT BY THE POSTERS I STATE) to undermine the progress being made in exposing SCIENTIFICALLY AND THEOLOGICALLY the Galileo case as one of the greatest scandals in history, suggesting the Church was wrong and Galileo was right when in fact ALL THE SCIENTIFIC AND THEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE proves the Bible was right and Lucifer's science was A LIE.

    To undermine this breakthrough by insisting on a flat-earth geocentrism would seem to me to be a disaster.
    Catholics' have known for many centuries that the earth is flat; you are behind the times.
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Theological reasons against the flat-earth theory
    « Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 06:44:24 PM »
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  •  Today, even by posters on this Catholic forum, Scriptural geocentrism is laughed at in order that none chose revelation over human reason even though it has more evidence for it than heliocentrism has.

    Flat-earthers certainly aren't going to laugh at geocentrism. We're with you on that. We, do, however, take it one step further.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29