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Author Topic: The torments of unbaptized infants.  (Read 5371 times)

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Offline happenby

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Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 11:03:51 PM »
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  • Its amazing how people like to twist the teachings of the Church to serve their own personal belief system.  "I personally believe God would never..."  Why say such things?  What good does it do for you to believe anything if God does His Way?  The point being, God is still not a bad guy even if he sent 99.9% of everyone to hell; He's God and what He does is perfect.  We actually have very little idea what He's thinking or what He's up to regarding souls.  Now, we do get a little bit of a clue when the Church warns us that without the sanctifying grace of baptism, no one enters heaven.  The truly humble shut up at that. You'd think folks would filter off, heads bowed, and all go home and do sacrifice for those who as yet aren't baptized.  But no. People's positive opinions of God detract from the remedy for perishing souls because those who opine are too busy arguing about the goodness of God to do the unbaptized any favors.  Besides, they always think happy thoughts, so they won't be doing anything about the problem anyway.  Trust them, its all good. 

    And this, in the minds of Catholics, is the more charitable position to hold.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 11:04:45 PM »
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  • That may be your personal belief. However, the Church's belief is that unbaptized babies who die do not attain Heaven on account of original sin, which suffices for damnation and may only be remitted through sacramental Baptism.

    Thank goodness Catholicism is not based upon personal beliefs. 
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline aryzia

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #17 on: January 17, 2018, 11:13:26 PM »
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  • That may be your personal belief. However, the Church's belief is that unbaptized babies who die do not attain Heaven on account of original sin, which suffices for damnation and may only be remitted through sacramental Baptism.

    Thank goodness Catholicism is not based upon personal beliefs.
    I think that is Happenby's point. It is ridiculous to even suggest another remedy.

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #18 on: January 17, 2018, 11:24:47 PM »
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  • That may be your personal belief. However, the Church's belief is that unbaptized babies who die do not attain Heaven on account of original sin, which suffices for damnation and may only be remitted through sacramental Baptism.

    Thank goodness Catholicism is not based upon personal beliefs.
    With God all things are possible, no? From what I know the Church states that those with original sin alone or mortal sin go to hell to be punished with "different punishments." What if the punishment of some (Mortal sinners) is eternal, while the punishment of the others (only original sin) are temporary? But of course these are only speculations. Nothing definitive.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #19 on: January 18, 2018, 12:11:07 AM »
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  • With God all things are possible, no? From what I know the Church states that those with original sin alone or mortal sin go to hell to be punished with "different punishments." What if the punishment of some (Mortal sinners) is eternal, while the punishment of the others (only original sin) are temporary? But of course these are only speculations. Nothing definitive.

    With God all things are possible indeed. However, we also know that God does not contradict Himself. The Church has already settled the matter through Her infallible Magisterium, so yes, the teaching is definitive. Unbaptized babies do not go to Heaven or Purgatory. Hell is the only place left to go, and Hell is an eternal place. 

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    “The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished moreover with disparate punishments. […] They will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Florence)
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #20 on: January 18, 2018, 08:59:57 AM »
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  • Let's not confuse wishful thinking with actually theology.  You "believe" this because you want to; it makes you feel good emotionally.

    With Catholic theology we begin with what the Church has taught us to be revealed by God and then derive things from it with the principles of reason.

    This line of thinking is at least implicitly condemned with the condemnations against Origen.

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 12:36:00 PM »
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  • With God all things are possible indeed. However, we also know that God does not contradict Himself. The Church has already settled the matter through Her infallible Magisterium, so yes, the teaching is definitive. Unbaptized babies do not go to Heaven or Purgatory. Hell is the only place left to go, and Hell is an eternal place.
    "They will go into everlasting fire" refers specifically to those who willingly and maliciously separate themselves or keep themselves separated from the Church. Also, this isnt't really related to what we're talking about, but I'm sure there is way more to the afterlife than heaven, hell and purgatory. You never know!

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #22 on: January 18, 2018, 12:47:20 PM »
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  • Let's not confuse wishful thinking with actually theology.  You "believe" this because you want to; it makes you feel good emotionally.

    With Catholic theology we begin with what the Church has taught us to be revealed by God and then derive things from it with the principles of reason.

    This line of thinking is at least implicitly condemned with the condemnations against Origen.
    Are you speaking about universalsim? What was condemned with Origen was his own idea of "Apocatastasis." The belief was that there was a pre-existence of souls. Origen believed that all souls will eventually be restored or returned to that primal condition. Our soul would be restored to that state it was in in the pre-existence. The Church, in that council, never condemned the idea that all souls may eventually, after a long time in hell, be saved (universalism). Though I'm not a universalist. I do believe souls end up in hell forever.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 12:35:10 AM »
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  • "They will go into everlasting fire" refers specifically to those who willingly and maliciously separate themselves or keep themselves separated from the Church. Also, this isnt't really related to what we're talking about, but I'm sure there is way more to the afterlife than heaven, hell and purgatory. You never know!

    I am pretty sure that this proposition (of being another place) has already been condemned by the Church. There are only three places where a soul can go after death: Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. The only ones who are transitionary and will eventually be "transferred" are those in Purgatory.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #24 on: January 19, 2018, 01:12:19 AM »
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  • Found the citation. Pope Zosimus confirming Canon 2 from the 16th Council of Carthage solemnly declared that:

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    It has been decided that, likewise, if anyone says that it might be understood that in the kingdom of Heaven, there will be some middle place or some place anywhere infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For the Lord says: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:5).          


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #25 on: January 19, 2018, 01:16:18 AM »
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  • And the Council of Trent, Decree on Original Sin, Chapter 4: 

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    If anyone denies that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam which has need of being expiated by the laver [water] of regeneration for the obtaining of life everlasting, let him be anathema. For, “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Jn.3:5).                      
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cera

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #26 on: January 24, 2018, 07:24:08 PM »
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  • Interesting article based on Aquinas on this topic:
    http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/anichols/abortion&martyrdom1.htm
    Infants being aborted are a special object of divine mercy for at least two reasons: they are absolutely free of personal sin, even though they are stained with original sin, and they are being murdered by their own parents. Now, being murdered by one's own parents is a sin against the natural law that cries out to Heaven. Since Jesus, our Saviour, 'will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim. 2:4), he also wants children undergoing deadly assault in the womb to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, the truth that he is. The Blessed Virgin Mary, as the new Eve, the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of the Church, is also the Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix of babies being attacked in the womb. In fact, we might say, every time the knife of an abortionist pierces one of their hearts, a sword of sorrow pierces her heart (cf. Luke 2:35). Seeing them dying in the state of original sin, will she not say once again to her divine Son, 'they have no wine' (John 2:3). If Jesus willed to convert the heart of Saul, who 'persecuted the Church of God' (1 Cor. 15:9), into Paul the Apostle and martyr, if Jesus, looking with pity upon a dying thief on Calvary, 'turned a penalty for murder into a martyrdom', will he refuse to convert the tiny hearts of these innocent victims into confessors of his mercy? If Isaac signified Christ in that he was being offered in sacrifice to God, why would Jesus not see in the deliberate killing of a human fetus a representation of his own death on Calvary?
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #27 on: January 24, 2018, 08:41:24 PM »
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  • Its my personal belief that the unbaptized 'innocents' (those who die unbaptized and with no actual sin) will eventually make it to heaven
    Personal belief? Why? Where's your doctrine?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #28 on: January 24, 2018, 08:44:11 PM »
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  • Interesting article based on Aquinas on this topic:
    Infants being aborted are a special object of divine mercy for at least two reasons...
    Then it looks like the focus on abortion should be redirected to the parents for they could go to hell if they do not repent for sending their children to heaven?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.
    « Reply #29 on: January 24, 2018, 08:47:11 PM »
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  • If people understood these writings from St. Augustine, they would think more clearly:

    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [ The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg. 97 ]


    St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24