Author Topic: The torments of unbaptized infants. (Read 5363 times)

Gregory I · « **on:** March 16, 2017, 12:24:52 AM »

I just finished writing a 14 page paper in the vein of a soliloquy on the torments of unbaptized infants. It cites the dogmatic decrees of the Church, her condemned propositions, and the scriptures and synthesizes a view which is already allowable in the Church (Vindicated as a legitimate opinion by Cardinal Enrico Norris in the 18th century and confirmed as such by Pope Benedict XIV).

The theme is that any positing of Limbo as a place of PERFECT NATURAL HAPPINESS OF THE KIND ENJOYED BY ADAM BEFORE THE FALL is Pelagian and erroneous. Note, I am not a Jansenist and roundly condemn them as heretics. I subscribe to everything written by all the Popes, including Pope Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei. I label no man a heretic, and do not consider a man who holds to such a view of Limbo as a formal heretic, though I consider this view erroneous and materially proximate to heresy.

Please read and give me your thoughts.

Let us end with a psalm of Moses:

“A fire is kindled in my wrath, and shall burn even to the lowest hell: and shall devour the earth with her increase, and shall burn the foundations of the mountains. [23] I will heap evils upon them, and will spend my arrows among them. [24] They shall be consumed with famine, and birds shall devour them with a most bitter bite: I will send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the fury of creatures that trail upon the ground, and of serpents. [25] Without, the sword shall lay them waste, and terror within, both the young man and the virgin, the sucking child with the man in years.”

Happy reading!

klasG4e · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2017, 09:46:45 PM »

And how does the single human cell (zygote) and everything up to the unbaptized infant fit into your model or is that a separate issue which either doesn't fit into your paper and or which you would not want to comment on here? Just asking!

Ascetik · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2017, 11:43:02 AM »

I find it incredibly presumptuous to say that unbaptized infants who say die during an abortion would receive any punishment from God with regards to sense or soul. That just doesn't make sense. They go to the limbo of the infants, which is technically Hell, but not that part of Hell which is reserved for the damned.

God is all-knowing, he would not create a child who is innocent, who has made no single act of the will against Him, to be punished by the true pains of Hell. The only "punishment" they receive is not being in Heaven, which is not really a punishment since they have done nothing to merit it.

It goes against Justice to punish someone who has done nothing wrong except for being born into the world, especially if they have committed no sin. With that said, it seems contradictory to say that an unbaptized infant would merit in any way, shape, or form the punishment that the damned endure.

cassini · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2017, 02:39:53 PM »

Has anyone else Ludwig Ott's FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA (1952). Somehow a copy found its way into my life. It is a treasure of teaching of the Catholic Church. Catholic theology is 'infinite.' When a certain question comes up I often go see if the Church has dogmatised something or taught something less than that.

Browsing through its 500 pages on everything to do with God trying to find teachings on Baptism and those dying without it, I found something that puts paid to absolutely Limbo theology on baptism I have always understood.

It came under the subject matter that God desires that ALL: men are saved.

"c) God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)

There is at the bottom of this discussion it makes reference to children dying without baptism. I now know why the Church never decreed a dogma on this important subject.

"Against the universality of the divine desire for salvation it is objected that God does not sincerely and earnestly desire the salvation of children dying without baptism. To this is replied: God is not obliged by virtue of His desire for salvation, to remove, by miraculous intervention, all individual impediments which arise in the world order created by Him. These impediments arise from the created, secondary causes which have been established by the Divine Prime Causer, and which, in many cases, make vain the execution of the Divine desire for salvation. There is also the possibility that God, in an extraordinary manner, remits original sin to those children who die without baptism and communicate grace to them, as His power is not limited by the Church's means of grace. However, the existence of such an extra-sacramental communication of grace cannot be proved. (see doctrine of Creation, par 25)"

I recall wondering where Pope John Paul II got his similar version of unbaptised innocents some years ago. I now see things differently. Yes, there is hope there in Catholic theology that these innocents will see the face of God. As Limbo is not a dogma, then the possibility exists. That is not to say we should not pursue the GUARANTEED grace and reward that baptism gives to a child, but can now pray that all innocents do get what God created them for in the first place.

What a comfort such hope can/could give to parents and families who have experienced the loss of a child before baptism could be administered.

Ascetik · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2017, 02:44:23 PM »

Another thing to keep in mind is we have the feast of Holy Innocents. Is this God's way of saying there is a possibility they are in Heaven? We'll find out when we die.

But are they in the Hell of the damned? I find that incredibly hard to believe, nor do I believe it.

Matto · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2017, 03:11:49 PM »

Original sin is real and all of us are born with it. Those who die in original sin alone go to hell. Most believe they go to Limbo which is a part of hell, but they cannot go to heaven.

Pope Pius XII said this about unbaptized infants: "“All that we have said about the protection and care of natural life is with even greater reason true of the supernatural life, which the newborn child receives with baptism. In the present dispensation there is no other means of communicating this life to the child, who has not yet the use of reason. And yet the state of grace is absolutely necessary for salvation: without it supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God, cannot be attained. In an adult an act of love may suffice to obtain him sanctifying grace and so supply for the lack of baptism; to the child still unborn, or newly born, this way is not open. If therefore we remember that charity towards our neighbor obliges us to assist him in case of necessity; that this obligation is graver and more urgent according to the greatness of the good to be procured or the evil to be avoided, and according to the inability of the needy one to help himself; then it is easy to understand the importance of providing for the baptism of a child, devoid of the use of reason and in grave danger or even certainty of death” " So he says infants cannot be saved by an "act of love" or BOD and that there is "no other means of communicating" the life of sanctifying grace to an infant other than baptism.

The belief that the unbaptized babies can go to heaven is frankly so Novus Ordo. In their thirst for belief in universal salvation they try to believe that everyone is in heaven.

cassini · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2017, 05:13:16 AM »

Quote from: Matto on March 23, 2017, 03:11:49 PM

Original sin is real and all of us are born with it. Those who die in original sin alone go to hell. Most believe they go to Limbo which is a part of hell, but they cannot go to heaven.

Pope Pius XII said this about unbaptized infants: "“All that we have said about the protection and care of natural life is with even greater reason true of the supernatural life, which the newborn child receives with baptism. In the present dispensation there is no other means of communicating this life to the child, who has not yet the use of reason. And yet the state of grace is absolutely necessary for salvation: without it supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God, cannot be attained. In an adult an act of love may suffice to obtain him sanctifying grace and so supply for the lack of baptism; to the child still unborn, or newly born, this way is not open. If therefore we remember that charity towards our neighbor obliges us to assist him in case of necessity; that this obligation is graver and more urgent according to the greatness of the good to be procured or the evil to be avoided, and according to the inability of the needy one to help himself; then it is easy to understand the importance of providing for the baptism of a child, devoid of the use of reason and in grave danger or even certainty of death” " So he says infants cannot be saved by an "act of love" or BOD and that there is "no other means of communicating" the life of sanctifying grace to an infant other than baptism.

The belief that the unbaptized babies can go to heaven is frankly so Novus Ordo. In their thirst for belief in universal salvation they try to believe that everyone is in heaven.

Why is there no dogma on unbaptised babies? It seems theological conclusions vary. Pius XII's opinion is only that. This is the same pope that said the Big Bang was the act of creation by God. That too was only an opinion I for one disagree with.
Of course there are problems. I suppose one could ask if babies intended for baptism (Catholic parents) have a better chance under the teaching I have discovered than babies that would never have had a Christian baptism.
Personally I now have hope all unbaptised babies will see the face of God.

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2017, 10:00:23 AM »

From the Catechism of Trent:
"The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death." No other means, so no BOD for infants.

I am not in the mood to do lots of research on this issue, so I will just say that the teaching that I think that the belief that infants who die without baptism can be saved is not traditional. Though I am not an expert, but am only an ignorant layman, I think it is probably even heretical.

Matto · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2017, 11:52:39 AM »

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…”

This seems to be infallible, from the Council of Florence. I found this through the Dimonds' website. It clearly denies the belief that unbaptized infants can be saved, so it seems the Church has infallibly taught that infants cannot be saved who die without baptism.

cassini · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2017, 12:57:10 PM »

Is this a Church teaching or not?

God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.) Sententia certa refers to teachings without final approval but clearly deduced from revelation.

I found it in Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. For many years I believed that no one can go to heaven without being a baptised Catholic, just like posters above. I recall however, being told by many traditional Catholic priests that innocent unbelievers (for example, a member of a tribe living in the jungle who never heard of Christ or His Church. I am sure we could think of other examples) can get to heaven if they are true to their conscience and the natural law. I recall thinking, that is only fair, God is fair, and He will decide which of those are worthy.

Now I, and other posters on this thread, live within a society that are aware of Christianity and can make choices. In other words, there are no innocent unbelievers among us. Within such a society it is absolutely right for the Church to insist on all the conditions necessary for salvation, baptism being the first requirement. Every word written on Church teaching by posters above is true for those who are capable of hearing. But what of those outside of this sphere, those totally ignorant and unaware of Christianity?

If the above sententia certa teaching is true for innocents who have reached the age of reason, then why are dead unbaptised children not part of the innocent unbelievers? It was Christ who opened the doors of heaven and His Church is there to tell us the only way to get to heaven. In fact then, any unbaptised who are saved, are saved by way of Christ and His Catholic Church.

Ultimately God will judge. I certainly hope God found a way to be with those he created for that very purpose, similar to those he saved (without baptism) when He went down to 'hell' after His crufixion.

Cantarella · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2017, 08:07:11 PM »

Quote from: Matto on March 24, 2017, 11:52:39 AM

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…”

This seems to be infallible, from the Council of Florence. I found this through the Dimonds' website. It clearly denies the belief that unbaptized infants can be saved, so it seems the Church has infallibly taught that infants cannot be saved who die without baptism.

Also, from the Infallible Magisterium:

Quote

Pope Innocent III, Apostolic Letter on Baptism:

For they maintain that it is useless to confer Baptism on infants. Our answer is that Baptism has taken the place of circuмcision. Therefore, as “the soul of the circuмcised was not destroyed out of his people” (Gen.17:14), so shall he who is born again of water and the Holy Spirit gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven (Jn.3:5)... But through the sacrament of Baptism sin is remitted and entrance is gained to the kingdom of Heaven. For it would not be fitting that all little children, so many of whom die each day, perish without having some remedy for salvation provided for them by the merciful God, who wishes that no one should perish.

The belief that unbaptized infants can attain the Beatific Vision is heretical. It runs contrary to the already defined Catholic dogmas concerning Original Sin, Hell, the gratuitous nature of grace, and the necessity of Sacramental Baptism for salvation.

The "hope" of unbaptized infants entering Heaven is yet another neo-Pelagian error of Novus Ordo sentimental "theology". It dilutes Divine - revealed Truth.

Motorede · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2017, 08:08:57 PM »

Quote from: cassini on March 24, 2017, 12:57:10 PM

Is this a Church teaching or not?

God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.) Sententia certa refers to teachings without final approval but clearly deduced from revelation.

I found it in Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. For many years I believed that no one can go to heaven without being a baptised Catholic, just like posters above. I recall however, being told by many traditional Catholic priests that innocent unbelievers (for example, a member of a tribe living in the jungle who never heard of Christ or His Church. I am sure we could think of other examples) can get to heaven if they are true to their conscience and the natural law. I recall thinking, that is only fair, God is fair, and He will decide which of those are worthy.

Now I, and other posters on this thread, live within a society that are aware of Christianity and can make choices. In other words, there are no innocent unbelievers among us. Within such a society it is absolutely right for the Church to insist on all the conditions necessary for salvation, baptism being the first requirement. Every word written on Church teaching by posters above is true for those who are capable of hearing. But what of those outside of this sphere, those totally ignorant and unaware of Christianity?

If the above sententia certa teaching is true for innocents who have reached the age of reason, then why are dead unbaptised children not part of the innocent unbelievers? It was Christ who opened the doors of heaven and His Church is there to tell us the only way to get to heaven. In fact then, any unbaptised who are saved, are saved by way of Christ and His Catholic Church.

Ultimately God will judge. I certainly hope God found a way to be with those he created for that very purpose, similar to those he saved (without baptism) when He went down to 'hell' after His crufixion.

Cassini, if you were able to locate a copy of Bishop Hay's work on the subject of grace, he explains all of your questions so well that you will see Divine Providence and the whole world in a different light. It took away all of the same kind of worries I had. There is a date of 1888 on my copy. He was bishop of Edinburgh,Scotland and a convert. One of the best parts of his catechism is that he quotes Holy Scripture in almost every sentence. No doubt he was interested in the conversion of his family and friends and knew that they would pay great attention to the Bible quotes. Then, if you can find it, read the bishop's thoughts in another section called "An Inquiry: Whether Salvation Can Be Had Outside the Catholic Church". He adds afterwards the Church's teaching on "Communio in Sacris". Hope this helps you as it has me. God bless.

cassini · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2017, 05:33:28 AM »

Many thanks Motorede for your reply.

Hopefully here is the book you referred to: https://archive.org/stream/worksofbishophay03hayuoft#page/n439/mode/2up/search/salvation+outside+the+church

I will read through and see what the Bishop had to say.

I must say I am disappointed in the quality of debate into important matters of faith like this. I put up some questions that are ignored. I thought this was a discussion forum. Statements of belief are of no consequence. Dismissing opposite opinions by way of ignoring them or by giving them a thumbs-down is not how one should debate a question.

Again, Who says this teaching means nothing?

God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)

Motorede · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2017, 12:02:36 PM »

Quote from: cassini on March 25, 2017, 05:33:28 AM

Many thanks Motorede for your reply.

Hopefully here is the book you referred to: https://archive.org/stream/worksofbishophay03hayuoft#page/n439/mode/2up/search/salvation+outside+the+church

I will read through and see what the Bishop had to say.

I must say I am disappointed in the quality of debate into important matters of faith like this. I put up some questions that are ignored. I thought this was a discussion forum. Statements of belief are of no consequence. Dismissing opposite opinions by way of ignoring them or by giving them a thumbs-down is not how one should debate a question.

Again, Who says this teaching means nothing?

God gives all innocent unbelievers sufficient grace to achieve eternal salvation. (Sent. certa.)

Yes. This is the good bishop's work but it is Vol.3, and the topics I suggested are in the other volumes (I think there are four vol. For sure the topics on Salvation and Communio in Sacris are at the end of Vol. 4. I'll check on Grace for you. God bless.

Mercyandjustice · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2018, 10:07:31 PM »

Its my personal belief that the unbaptized 'innocents' (those who die unbaptized and with no actual sin) will eventually make it to heaven

Author Topic: The torments of unbaptized infants. (Read 5363 times)

Gregory I

The torments of unbaptized infants.

klasG4e

The torments of unbaptized infants.

Ascetik

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

cassini

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Ascetik

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Matto

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

cassini

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Matto

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Matto

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

cassini

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Cantarella

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Motorede

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

cassini

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Motorede

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.

Mercyandjustice

Re: The torments of unbaptized infants.