Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Precursor vs The Mark  (Read 18346 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12476
  • Reputation: +7929/-2450
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2021, 03:54:41 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Either way, the idea of Bergolio being "the man of sin" misses on so many details.  The antichrist is supposed to be the following:
    a.  in his youth, a famous general of armies, winning many battles.  Did this happen with Bergolio?  No.
    b.  he's not a cleric.  Is Bergolio a cleric?  On the surface, yes.
    c.  the antichrist works with kings.  Where are the kings?  (this is not metaphorical)
    d.  mimicking Our Lord, he gains power around 33AD.  How old is Bergolio?

    I'm sure there are more details.  This is just off the top of my head.  Many of you need to do a lot more reading (of the correct/approved sources).

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #46 on: December 01, 2021, 04:16:36 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Either way, the idea of Bergolio being "the man of sin" misses on so many details.  The antichrist is supposed to be the following:
    a.  in his youth, a famous general of armies, winning many battles.  Did this happen with Bergolio?  No.
    b.  he's not a cleric.  Is Bergolio a cleric?  On the surface, yes.
    c.  the antichrist works with kings.  Where are the kings?  (this is not metaphorical)
    d.  mimicking Our Lord, he gains power around 33AD.  How old is Bergolio?

    I'm sure there are more details.  This is just off the top of my head.  Many of you need to do a lot more reading (of the correct/approved sources).

    None of that is written in stone, Pax. It's speculation, which of course could be simply wrong.

    On the other hand, the AntiChrist is called the "son of perdition" in 2 Thess. 2. The phrase is used of one other in Scripture, Judas, a false (or betraying, false in that sense, though legitimately "elected" by Our Lord - hmm, sounds familiar) apostle.

    Also, Daniel says that the Antichrist will "change times and laws," i.e., rites regarding worship, and that points to a "pope."

    And the quotation marks around pope get me to the most important point: if he lacks the Catholic faith, is he really pope in the fullest sense of the word? The Antichrist may be a false "pope," a usurper, someone with an agenda to use Our Lord and His Church for purposes not intended by God, like Judas.

    Just sayin'

    DR


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12476
    • Reputation: +7929/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #47 on: December 01, 2021, 04:24:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote
    None of that is written in stone, Pax. It's speculation,
    You have no idea what you're talking about.  There are many details of the antichrist times that are unanimously agreed upon by the Church Fathers (i.e. infallible).  There are other details that are "highly" agreed upon.

    The idea that the antichrist will be a pope, a false pope, or an anti-pope is so far out in left field, it's ridiculous.  There's no basis for it.  Even many prophecies disprove it, especially the St Malachy list of popes.

    Some of you are making predictions based on a handful of facts.  Meanwhile you don't realize that you are missing the 30-40 additional facts which would completely change your original prediction.  In other words, you're trying to play solitaire with less than a full deck.  The game won't work.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #48 on: December 01, 2021, 04:31:37 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Fathers teach unanimously, that all exegesis of prophecy is preliminary. One or the other theologian claims that this or that idea (e.g. Antichrist is a certain person)  is de fide. But that doesn't mean de fide in the sense of official Church teaching. It rather expresses the idea, that this theologian didn't read any other theologian contradicting.

    Additionally, canonized Scripture and Fathers as well as other commentators explain that prophecy about the end times is "sealed". Nobody knows in advance what exactly will happen. Things have to come to pass for then contemporary witnesses to understand that corresponding prophecy of Scripture is being or has been fulfilled.

    This ^^^^

    Ask yourself: has the Church ever exercised her authority as the voice of God (i.e, invoked her infallible Magisterium) to define anything remotely specific about the End Times? No.

    If it were a false pope, she would have been shooting herself in the foot, with various Catholics wondering if the current pope (like the Prots do for a whole string of popes) is that guy if, for example, he changed the liturgy like Pius XII did on Holy Week? It would be chaos. No, she ain't gonna do that when, in normal times, the guy sitting on the seat is to be listened to.

    It was sealed until the ripeness of times. Now, we're seeing it, the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:16

    Flee. Flee. Flee.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #49 on: December 01, 2021, 04:37:54 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • You have no idea what you're talking about.  There are many details of the antichrist times that are unanimously agreed upon by the Church Fathers (i.e. infallible).  There are other details that are "highly" agreed upon.

    The idea that the antichrist will be a pope, a false pope, or an anti-pope is so far out in left field, it's ridiculous.  There's no basis for it.  Even many prophecies disprove it, especially the St Malachy list of popes.

    Some of you are making predictions based on a handful of facts.  Meanwhile you don't realize that you are missing the 30-40 additional facts which would completely change your original prediction.  In other words, you're trying to play solitaire with less than a full deck.  The game won't work.

    Maybe I'll cite Haydock for you about the "unanimity" of the fathers on the End Times and Antichrist. 

    Or maybe I won't . . . since I have no idea what I'm talking about. :laugh1:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12476
    • Reputation: +7929/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #50 on: December 01, 2021, 04:46:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Maybe I'll cite Haydock for you about the "unanimity" of the fathers on the End Times and Antichrist. 
    :facepalm:  Of course the Church Fathers aren't unanimous on EVERYTHING, but they are in certain details.  These details, when placed together, destroy the idea that a pope/false pope is the "man of sin".  That's the point.  It's not even debatable.  Catholics have been studying the Church Fathers for centuries.  I don't get why you people are fighting this?

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #51 on: December 01, 2021, 04:48:21 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Oh, and btw, he who apparently knows what he's talking about, the specific referent of my comment, "none of this is written in stone," was the following statements by you:


    Quote
    Either way, the idea of Bergolio being "the man of sin" misses on so many details.  The antichrist is supposed to be the following:

    a.  in his youth, a famous general of armies, winning many battles.  Did this happen with Bergolio?  No.
    b.  he's not a cleric.  Is Bergolio a cleric?  On the surface, yes.
    c.  the antichrist works with kings.  Where are the kings?  (this is not metaphorical)
    d.  mimicking Our Lord, he gains power around 33AD.  How old is Bergolio?

    Show me, since you apparently do know, the "unanimity" of the Church Fathers on either a, b, c, or d, much less all. 

    I won't hold my breath. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #52 on: December 01, 2021, 04:52:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • This discussion started off interesting and is now into Trad Catholic sola scriptura territory. I'm out.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1197
    • Reputation: +507/-99
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #53 on: December 01, 2021, 05:00:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've not heard that they are his heirs, in a family sense, as I'm not sure the Great Monarch ever marries.  No prophecy talks of this.  If he did have a Queen, then the Empire would be ruled by her after his death, not the 10 kings.  Also, he is described in many prophecies as holy or angelic, which usually signifies purity, so it's reasonable to assume he does not have a family.  But i'm guessing.

    Yes, those kings would govern the world, split into 10 kingdoms, after the Monarch dies.  I would assume those 10 kings rule over their kingdoms before he dies, since as Emperor of the whole world, the Great Monarch would have kings who report to him, kind of like Governors in a republic style govt.  Once the Monarch dies, there is the inevitable power vacuum and those 10 kings jockey amongst themselves with the antichrist being a prodigy of sorts in warfare and in leading armies (similar to Alexander the Great).  He wins battles, convinces 7 kings to join him and they defeat 3 who resist.  Then the antichrist rises in power and the joos give him control of Jerusalem.  Then things get nuts.
    Pax, where is your "Great Monarch" prophecy coming from? Please quote actual Church Fathers, if you can find any.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12476
    • Reputation: +7929/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #54 on: December 01, 2021, 05:23:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • For starters, you can read all these quotes on this thread.  I’ve posted other stuff on this site too.  

    https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/dimond-brothers/msg658710/#msg658710

    Offline Marion

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +759/-1166
    • Gender: Male
    • sedem ablata
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #55 on: December 01, 2021, 06:09:08 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pax, where is your "Great Monarch" prophecy coming from? Please quote actual Church Fathers, if you can find any.

    If I recall correctly, it's from St. Remigius, the Bishop of Reims, in the 5th/6th century, and was fullfilled when Charlemagne was crowned by the Pope on 25th of December A.D. 800 in Rome as the first Holy Roman Emperor of the 1000 year Holy Roman Empire.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12476
    • Reputation: +7929/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #56 on: December 01, 2021, 10:13:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Pax, where is your "Great Monarch" prophecy coming from?
    No, it's not from St Remigius only, as there have been prophecies, consistently, speaking of the coming Monarch during a period of peace and restoration of the Church.  See the thread I posted for numerous quotes.


    But the biggest proof is that most of the Church Fathers said that the antichrist comes once the Holy Roman Empire is dissolved.  In history, we've had 2 Holy Roman Empires (i.e. catholic empires), and prophecies speak of a 3rd taking place towards the end times.  So if (or when) the Holy Roman Empire occurs a 3rd time, there will necessarily be an Emperor (or Monarch).  Once this dissolves, then the antichrist comes to power. 

    So many, many Church Fathers talk about a Holy Empire.  Many, many prophecies talk about a Holy Monarch.  Connect the dots...

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12476
    • Reputation: +7929/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #57 on: December 02, 2021, 08:24:33 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some quotes from the Church Fathers (and other saints) which support the coming Great Monarch and the return of the Holy Roman Empire.  Then the fall of the Roman Empire, and the rise of the anti-christ.  [my comments in blue]


    St Methodius (4th cent) speaking of the a coming Great and Holy King

    "A day will come when the enemies of Christ [freemasons] will boast of having conquered the whole world.  They will say, "Christians cannot escape now!"  But a great King will arise to fight the enemies of God.  He will defeat them, and peace will be given to the world, and the Church will be freed from Her anxieties."

    ---

    St Remigius (5th cent), Bishop of France who baptized King Clovis and 3,000 followers into the Faith in 496 AD.

    "Take notice that the Kingdom of France is predestined by God for the defense of the Roman Church which is the only true Church of Christ.  This kingdom shall someday be great among the kingdoms of the earth, and shall embrace all the limits of the Roman Empire, and shall submit all other kingdoms to its own scepter."

    [France has never held this much territory under its power.  It has never embraced all the limits of the Roman Empire.  If this prophecy is true, it is yet to come.]

    ---

    St Caesar of Arles, France (6th cent), Father of the Church, according to Jurgen's "Faith of the Early Fathers".  Presided over the 2nd Council of Orange in 529 AD against Pelagianism.

    "When the entire world, and in a special way France - especially the provinces of the north, the east, and above all that of Lorraine and Champagne - shall have been laid waste by the greatest miseries and trials, then the provinces shall be comforted by a prince who had been exiled in his youth, and who shall recover the crown of the lilies.  This prince shall extend his dominion over the total universe. 

    At the same time, by the will of God, a most holy man shall receive the Papacy, who will be most perfect in every spiritual perfection.  This Pope will have with him the great Monarch, the most virtuous man, who shall be an eminent leader of the holy line of French Kings.  This great Monarch shall assist the Pope in the reformation of the whole earth.  Many nations and their princes that are living in error and impiety shall be converted and an admirable peace shall reign among men during many years, because the wrath of God shall be appeased through their repentence, penance and good works.  There will be one common law, only one faith, one baptism, one religion.

    All nations shall recognize the Holy See of Rome, and shall pay homage to the Pope.  But after an extended period of time, fervor will cool, inquity will abound and moral corruption shall become worse than ever before, which shall bring upon mankind the last and worst persecution of anti-christ and the end of the world."

    ---

    St Epheaem (5th cent)

    "Then the Lord from his glorious heaven shall set up His peace.  And the kingdom of the Romans [Roman Empire] shall rise in place of this latter people, and establish its dominion upon the earth, even to its ends, and there shall be no one who will resist it. 

    After iniquity shall have multiplied, and all creatures have become defiled, then Divine Justice shall appear, and shall wholly destroy the people, and coming forth from perdition, the man of iniquity [anti-christ] shall be revealed upon the earth, the Seducer of men, and the distruber of the whole earth."

    ---

    St Catald(us)  (7th cent)

    "The Great King will wage war till he is 40 years of age.  He will assemble great armies and hurl back the tyrants out of his empire."

    ---

    Rabanus Maurus  (9th cent), the most thorough chronicler of both prophecy and Oral Tradition in Western Europe.  He was abbot of the famous Benedictine Monastery in Fulda.  According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "His fame as a teacher spread all over Europe.  He was the most learned man of his age.  In scripture and patristic knowledge, he had no equal and was thoroughly conversant in canon law and liturgy."

    "Our principle Doctors [teachers of the Faith] agree in telling us, that towards the end of time one of the descendents of the kings of France shall reign over all the Roman Empire; and that he shall be the greatest of the French Monarchs and the last of his race.  After having governed well his kingdom, he shall go to Jerusalem and lay down his scepter and crown at Mt Olivet.  This shall be the conclusion of the Roman and Christian Empire."

    ---

    St Anslem  (11th cent), Doctor of the Church 

    "Certian Doctors [esteemed teachers of the Faith] truly say, that one of the kings of the Frankish Empire shall possess it in its entirety, which King shall live in the last time and shall be the greatest and last of kings.  Who after he shall have happily governed his Kingdom, shall come to Jerusalem and lay down his scepter and crown on Mt Olivet.  He shall be the last and consummate Emperor of the Roman and Christian Empire.

    And immediately thereupon [after he lays down his scepter/crown], according to the sentence of Paul, they [esteemed teachers of the Faith] say antichrist will come."

    ---

    St Thomas a'Becket (12th cent)

    "A knight shall come from the West.  He shall capture Milan, Lombardy and the three Crowns [Italy].  He shall then sail to Cyprus and Famagoste and land at Jaffa [the oldest part of Tel Aviv, Israel], and reach Christ's grave, where he will fight.  Wars and wonders shall befall until the people believe in Christ toward the end of the world."

    ---

    St Hildegard (12th cent)

    ...There are so many prophecies from St Hildegard that you can look them up yourself.


    William D'Otrante (13th cent), an abbot of a monastery in Southern Italy

    "The Great Monarch and the great pope will preceed anti-christ.  The nations will be at war for 4 years and a great part of the world will be destroyed.  The pope will go over the sea carrying the sign of Redemption on his forehead.  The Great Monarch will come to restore peace and the Pope will share the victory.  Peace will reign on earth."

    ---

    John of Vatiguerro (13th cent)

    "Spoilation, pillaging and devastation of that most famous city which is the capital and mistress of France [Paris] will take place when the Church and the world are grievously troubled.  The Pope will change his residence and the Church will not be defended for 25 months or more, because during all that time, there will be no Pope in Rome, no emperor and no ruler in France.  But, after this, a young captive Prince shall recover the Crown of the Lilies and shall extend his dominion all over the world."

    ---

    St Vicent Ferrer (14th cent), known as the "Angel of Judgement" spoken of in the Apocalypse.

    "Armies from the East, West and North will fight together in Italy and the Eagle [Great Monarch] shall capture the false king, and all things shall be made obedient unto him, and there shall be a new reformation in the world."

    ---


    Concerning the Fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the anti-christ...


    ---------------------------

    St Cyril of Jerusalem (4th cent):  Speaking of the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the anti-christ

    "Since the true Christ is to come a second time, the adversary makes use of the expectation of the simple, and especially of those of the circuмcision [the joos]; and he brings in a certain man who is a magician, and who is quite expert in sorceries and enchantments of beguiling craftiness.  This one shall seize the power of the Roman Empire, and shall falsely style himself Christ.  By the name of Christ he shall deceive the joos, who are expecting the Annointed and he shall seduce the gentiles by his magical illusions.

    This aforementioned anti-christ is to come when the times of the Roman Empire have been fulfilled and the end of the world is drawing near.  There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts, perhaps, but all reigning at the same time.  After these there shall be an eleventh, the anti-christ, who by the evil power of magic [false miracles] shall seize upon the Roman Power.  Of the kings who reigned before him, 3 shall be humble and the remaining 7 he shall have as subjects under him [see book of Daniel].  He shall desplay against all men and especially against Christians, a spirit that is murderous and most cruel, merciless and wily.  For three years and six months only shall he be the perpetrator of such things.

    Now these things we teach not of our own ingenuity...that this kingdom is that of the Romans has been the tradition of the Church's interpreters..."

    ---

    St John Chrysostom (4th cent): 

    "In the same way as those kingdoms which existed before the Roman Empire were destroyed (the Babylonian by the Persian, the Persian by the Greek, the Greek by the Roman), so will the Roman Empire be destroyed by anti-christ.  This will happen when the Roman Empire shall have been divided into 10 kingdoms [after the Holy Monarch dies]."

    ---

    St Jerome (4th cent)...in his commentary on the Book of Daniel:

    "Therefore, let us state what all the Ecclesiastical writers [omnes scriptores ecclesiastici] have passed down [tradiderunt]: At the consummation of the world, when the Kingdom of the Romans has been destroyed, when ten kings shall have divided the territory of the Romans between themselves, an eleventh shall rise to a small kingdom, who when he shall have overcome three of the ten kings, i.e. the kingdom of the Egyptians, of the Africans and of the Ethiopians and consequently as we learn more manifestly - whom he shall have killed, the other seven kings shall submit their necks to the victor [the eleventh king].

    Who is the eleventh king?  St Jerome explains:

    "Nor do we think him to be the Devil or a demon, as some others do, but one of mankind in whom satan shall dwell totally...his mouth uttering great boasts, for he is the man of sin, the son of perdition, such that he will seat himself in the Temple as if he were God.  [Here Jerome is directly quoting from St Paul's description of the anti-christ in 2nd Thessalonians, 2:15]

    ---

    There are many, many, many more where this came from.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #58 on: December 02, 2021, 08:43:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • These aren't MY readings. Everything I said has either been a quote or paraphrase taken from a Church Father, a theologian, or a Church prelate like Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer. My own speculations beyond these are rooted in them, not something interpreted on my own from Scripture alone as yours appear to be.

    I suggest you stop reading the Apocalypse itself and pick up The Apocalypse of St. John by Fr. Berry, The Book of Destiny by Fr. Kramer, or read what some Fathers like St. Hippolytus or St. Irenaeus said about the Antichrist. There's works like The End of the Present World by Fr. Arminjon, The Christian Trumpet by Rossi, (attached to this post) and The Present Crisis of the Holy See by Cdl. Manning.  Even the post-Conciliar work The Antichrist by Fr. Miceli is worth reading.
    People need to stop listening to Protestants and pseudo-Catholics and do some serious reading. I've provided free links to many of these books in the quoted post.

    Also, Yves Dupont lays out all of the prophecies on the chastisement and Great Monarch in his book Catholic Prophecy

    Also, at the following: http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/great-catholic-monarch.htm

    P
    ax and I aren't just pulling all of this out of thin air.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12476
    • Reputation: +7929/-2450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #59 on: December 02, 2021, 09:07:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    People need to stop listening to Protestants and pseudo-Catholics and do some serious reading. I've provided free links to many of these books in the quoted post.

    Pax and I aren't just pulling all of this out of thin air.
    Totally agree.  I have no agenda, I just follow the truth.  The Saints were just as curious about these topics as we are, and they have been praying/prophecizing about these events since right after Christ ascended to heaven.  Remember when the Apostles even asked Christ about the 2nd coming?  He hadn't even left yet!  So you read what the saints said, add to it Our Lady's messages, add Scripture, and you get a clear, consistent timeline.  It is what it is.  Believe it or not.