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Author Topic: The Precursor vs The Mark  (Read 18331 times)

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Offline Marion

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Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2021, 11:23:10 PM »
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  • Is what the Fathers and theologians taught about the Anti-Christ/Mark of the Beast, etc. considered infallible Church teaching?  Or is there room for speculation since it does not appear to be settled doctrine?

    The Fathers teach unanimously, that all exegesis of prophecy is preliminary. One or the other theologian claims that this or that idea (e.g. Antichrist is a certain person)  is de fide. But that doesn't mean de fide in the sense of official Church teaching. It rather expresses the idea, that this theologian didn't read any other theologian contradicting.

    Additionally, canonized Scripture and Fathers as well as other commentators explain that prophecy about the end times is "sealed". Nobody knows in advance what exactly will happen. Things have to come to pass for then contemporary witnesses to understand that corresponding prophecy of Scripture is being or has been fulfilled.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #31 on: November 30, 2021, 11:27:54 PM »
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  • It depends on whether the Fathers were unanimous, which I don't recall offhand if this is one of those points. That said, there's room for speculation, of course, as both the interpretations of Fr. Berry and Fr. Herman Kramer vary on several points, even when compared with the compendium of prophecies from Yves Dupont. Yet, this does not mean we should delve right into the Modern reading of Scripture and assume that these references are all figurative.

    It is correct to state that there are always lesser, archetypical antichrists in any given era, but the context of St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians speaks of a singular Man of Sin, which the Fathers identify as THE Antichrist.
    Fr. Berry agrees with this point, citing Suarez:
    A few excerpts of Fr. Kramer on the matter of Antichrist's individual nature:
    The person of Antichrist will be the culmination of all the lesser antichrists throughout history:

    Furthermore, here is the following that Yves Dupont collected regarding the Antichrist being an individual man (source):

    Yes, Our Lord himself said, "If another come in his own name, him you will accept." Even Our Lord predicted the Antichrist would be ONE MAN.

    It's actually a common error that the Antichrist will be a movement, a system, a tendency, an error. NO! It will be a singular MAN OF SIN. The SON OF PERDITION.

    All the other antichrists with a lowercase "a" are just archetypes, dress rehearsals, for the REAL THING.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #32 on: November 30, 2021, 11:32:03 PM »
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  • I understand what you are saying. I am disagreeing that "the Antichrist" has not been revealed. The Antichrist is most of the world elite and their enablers, who are persecuting those faithful to the Holy Trinity and the authentic magisterium.
     
    All of those people are "the Antichrist" because the governments and corporations are not enabled by a single man in our world. There is no Roman emperor in democratic-socialist societies. The "people" manipulated by the elite and their media propaganda machine enable the entire Antichristian apparatus, the multi-tentacled Leviathan. Those who are on-board with the religion of woke and covidocracy are "the Antichrist" because without their support, the craziness would not be happening.

    I know this sounds "out there." So I can understand if you disagree with me. I think it will become clearer as we move forward.

    I'm pretty sure that's an error. The Antichrist will be ONE MAN -- not a system, error, tendency, or movement.

    Furthermore, he will sit in the Temple giving himself out as god, working wonders and deceiving the elect.

    We don't have this happening today. Just some real organized wickedness in the world. Much of that wickedness by the same (((group))) that has been opposing the Church for 2000 years. The only difference is how low we (the Good) have fallen. The Christian nations have all fallen into apostasy as nations. So we're lower than we've ever been before -- and the enemies of God are more successful than they've ever been before. But fundamentally, we're in the same situation: Good vs. evil, the good persecuted by the bad, etc. We haven't gone into the final "Antichrist" lap of the race yet.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #33 on: December 01, 2021, 08:32:54 AM »
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  • I'm pretty sure that's an error. The Antichrist will be ONE MAN -- not a system, error, tendency, or movement.

    Furthermore, he will sit in the Temple giving himself out as god, working wonders and deceiving the elect.

    We don't have this happening today. Just some real organized wickedness in the world. Much of that wickedness by the same (((group))) that has been opposing the Church for 2000 years. The only difference is how low we (the Good) have fallen. The Christian nations have all fallen into apostasy as nations. So we're lower than we've ever been before -- and the enemies of God are more successful than they've ever been before. But fundamentally, we're in the same situation: Good vs. evil, the good persecuted by the bad, etc. We haven't gone into the final "Antichrist" lap of the race yet.

    Okay, let me restate. What I said does sound mixed up, although I did say at the beginning that Bergoglio was "the False Prophet." A singular man. Here's why I said it like I did.

    1. I was using the word "antichrist" as St. John used it in his letters. There is no other use of that exact term "antichrist" in the Scripture than in John's letters. It refers to those people who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, Son of God. They "try to dissolve Christ" in some form or another. These people are manifold, as John uses the term.

    2. The singular man discussed in Scripture is referred to variously as "the man of sin," the son of perdition," and "the wicked one" in 2 Thessalonians 2. I believe that he is referred to in the Apocalypse as "the False Prophet." I believe all of those people are the same person. So I agree that there is a singular man who is going to start the ball rolling in the End Times.

    3. The Church Fathers (and all following them) used the term "the Antichrist" to refer to the singular person that I discuss in 2 above. This can easily be seen in Aquinas's works, where he and others identify "the Antichrist" as the person discussed in 2 Thessalonians 2 and Matthew 24, even though the original Greek does not have "antichrist" in those places. In fact, Matthew 24 speaks of "false prophets."

    I bring it all up to show that "the False Prophet," a religious leader not a secular leader, is the "man of sin," the "son of perdition." The False Prophet and The Antichrist are the same person. Everyone is waiting around for some secular leader to be "revealed." But I think Bergoglio is guy we are looking for. And that, very soon, it will become more clear (aka "he will be revealed") to those who do not yet see it.

    Does anyone really believe that a secular leader is going to "sit in the Temple of God" and "deceive the Elect." The guy who is doing that and will eventually do it with finality is already there. His name is Bergoglio.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #34 on: December 01, 2021, 08:45:56 AM »
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  • I bring it all up to show that "the False Prophet," a religious leader not a secular leader, is the "man of sin," the "son of perdition." The False Prophet and The Antichrist are the same person. Everyone is waiting around for some secular leader to be "revealed." But I think Bergoglio is guy we are looking for. And that, very soon, it will become more clear (aka "he will be revealed") to those who do not yet see it.

    Does anyone really believe that a secular leader is going to "sit in the Temple of God" and "deceive the Elect." The guy who is doing that and will eventually do it with finality is already there. His name is Bergoglio.
    No, they are not the same person. You yourself have been deceived. The Apocalype itself states that the False Prophet promotes the cult of the Beast. The Beast being that Man of Sin, the Antichrist.
    Quote
    "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet, who wrought signs before him, wherewith he seduced them who received the character of the beast, and who adored his image." [Apoc. 19:20]
    The False Prophet reigns simultaneously with the Beast, but he is a separate person, hence reference of him being "with" and "before" the Beast, aka Antichrist.

    Bergoglio is most certainly a type of the False Prophet, but since there is no visible Antichrist we cannot say with certainty that he is that Prophet of the Beast. Also, as stated in the other thread, the Beast will support his claims to divinity with signs and wonders. Bergoglio most certainly has done nothing of the sort.

    To think he is that Man and that Prophet is to be deceived when the real Antichrist comes. MHFM will be deceived when he comes because they think he already came in the person of JPII, so the appearance of Antichrist will be taken by them as the return of Christ, along with those Protestants, who believe pretty much the same thing about all Popes, who believe Christ is coming back soon.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #35 on: December 01, 2021, 08:46:32 AM »
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  • Quote
    I bring it all up to show that "the False Prophet," a religious leader not a secular leader, is the "man of sin," the "son of perdition." The False Prophet and The Antichrist are the same person. Everyone is waiting around for some secular leader to be "revealed." But I think Bergoglio is guy we are looking for. And that, very soon, it will become more clear (aka "he will be revealed") to those who do not yet see it.

    Does anyone really believe that a secular leader is going to "sit in the Temple of God" and "deceive the Elect." The guy who is doing that and will eventually do it with finality is already there. His name is Bergoglio.
    Ok, thanks for clearing up the "singular man" issue, but you're still missing a big part of the picture.  You are incorrect that the antichrist will not be a secular leader.  He will be both a religious/secular leader together.  He will rule the world, as a human representative of satan himself.  He will be the evil joos' version of the messiah (i.e. a world ruler), which is contrary to what Christ wanted ("My kingdom is not of this world").


    The Church Fathers (and Scripture) is very clear that the antichrist will be famous at a young age by winning military battles and he will eventually rule the "10 kings" spoken of in the Apocalypse.  7 kings will join him, they will conquer the 3 who resist him, and he will rule from his seat in Jerusalem.

    Bergoglio doesn't fit any major antichrist attribute list.  The antichrist will not be a pope.  End of story.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #36 on: December 01, 2021, 08:48:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    The False Prophet reigns simultaneously with the Beast, but he is a separate person, hence reference of him being "with" and "before" the Beast, aka Antichrist.
    I agree with this.  Satan apes God in all he does.  The False Prophet is meant to symbolize St John the Baptist, who preached while Christ was alive and pointed Him out to the people.  So the False Prophet will prepare the people for the antichrist, the false messiah, who will rule the world.

    Most of what DigitalL has written on this thread (and others) is correct.  I don't know where the rest of you are getting your information.  You need to be reading the Haydock Bible and the Church Fathers.  All else is probably muddied up by protestant errors.

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #37 on: December 01, 2021, 10:01:28 AM »
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  • The Church Fathers (and Scripture) is very clear that the antichrist will be famous at a young age by winning military battles and he will eventually rule the "10 kings" spoken of in the Apocalypse.  7 kings will join him, they will conquer the 3 who resist him, and he will rule from his seat in Jerusalem.
    I may have misheard but the 10 kings are supposed to be the heirs of the Great Monarch. Correct me if I am mistaken


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #38 on: December 01, 2021, 11:05:02 AM »
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    I may have misheard but the 10 kings are supposed to be the heirs of the Great Monarch. Correct me if I am mistaken
    I've not heard that they are his heirs, in a family sense, as I'm not sure the Great Monarch ever marries.  No prophecy talks of this.  If he did have a Queen, then the Empire would be ruled by her after his death, not the 10 kings.  Also, he is described in many prophecies as holy or angelic, which usually signifies purity, so it's reasonable to assume he does not have a family.  But i'm guessing.

    Yes, those kings would govern the world, split into 10 kingdoms, after the Monarch dies.  I would assume those 10 kings rule over their kingdoms before he dies, since as Emperor of the whole world, the Great Monarch would have kings who report to him, kind of like Governors in a republic style govt.  Once the Monarch dies, there is the inevitable power vacuum and those 10 kings jockey amongst themselves with the antichrist being a prodigy of sorts in warfare and in leading armies (similar to Alexander the Great).  He wins battles, convinces 7 kings to join him and they defeat 3 who resist.  Then the antichrist rises in power and the joos give him control of Jerusalem.  Then things get nuts.

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #39 on: December 01, 2021, 12:05:00 PM »
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  • I've not heard that they are his heirs, in a family sense, as I'm not sure the Great Monarch ever marries.  No prophecy talks of this.  If he did have a Queen, then the Empire would be ruled by her after his death, not the 10 kings.  Also, he is described in many prophecies as holy or angelic, which usually signifies purity, so it's reasonable to assume he does not have a family.  But i'm guessing.

    Yes, those kings would govern the world, split into 10 kingdoms, after the Monarch dies.  I would assume those 10 kings rule over their kingdoms before he dies, since as Emperor of the whole world, the Great Monarch would have kings who report to him, kind of like Governors in a republic style govt.  Once the Monarch dies, there is the inevitable power vacuum and those 10 kings jockey amongst themselves with the antichrist being a prodigy of sorts in warfare and in leading armies (similar to Alexander the Great).  He wins battles, convinces 7 kings to join him and they defeat 3 who resist.  Then the antichrist rises in power and the joos give him control of Jerusalem.  Then things get nuts.
    Not necessarily his children, but in prudence he has to have a plan on what happens to the world when he dies.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #40 on: December 01, 2021, 12:30:37 PM »
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    Not necessarily his children, but in prudence he has to have a plan on what happens to the world when he dies.
    Yes, certainly he would have a plan of succession (10 kings), but God may alter such a plan (allow disagreements) due to punishment for sin.  It's clear in prophecy that the days of peace only last with the Great Monarch.  Once he dies, this is a sign that the end of the 6th age, and the start of the 7th/last age is upon the world; the end of the Our Lady's peace.  It is also clear that God allows political turmoil amongst the kings, with war, as a punishment for lukewarmness.  This lukewarmness leads to spiritual decay, which leads to the world accepting the antichrist's false religion.


    The parallels to now are as fascinating as they are horrific.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #41 on: December 01, 2021, 03:26:32 PM »
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  • Pax Vobis and Digital Logos. I am sure I’m wrong about some things that I have stated. The prophecies have not completely unfolded yet.

    But I’m equally sure that an overly-literal reading such as yours will be shown to cause more grave errors. Please open your mind to metaphorical language when you are reading the Apocalypse. The “villain” in all of the prophecies is the head of the Counterfeit Catholic Church. Yes, he blends his false church with “the world,” making him a secular leader. Look what Bergoglio is doing with the UN and COVID vaccines. 

    I don’t expect to convince you right now. I only say be open to the possibility that Bergoglio is “the man of Sin.” I could be wrong. I’m am fallible. Things will become clearer to all of us in the near future. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #42 on: December 01, 2021, 03:37:56 PM »
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    The prophecies have not completely unfolded yet.
    The Catholic Church is the only Church allowed to explain the Apocalypse.  And the Church Fathers of the early centuries wrote volumes, and volumes just on the Apocalypse alone.  Yes, you are correct, the prophecies have not yet unfolded but that only concerns the minor details.  We have been given a very clear-cut outline of what will happen.

    Quote
    But I’m equally sure that an overly-literal reading such as yours will be shown to cause more grave errors. Please open your mind to metaphorical language when you are reading the Apocalypse. The “villain” in all of the prophecies is the head of the Counterfeit Catholic Church.
    This is absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt, wrong.  The antichrist is NOT the pope.  There is no prophecy which even suggests this.  Only protestants believe such, because they hate the papacy.

    Quote
    Yes, he blends his false church with “the world,” making him a secular leader. Look what Bergoglio is doing with the UN and COVID vaccines. 
    The antichrist does create a "theocracy" similar to what God envisioned for the Church on earth and similar to what we saw in the Middle Ages - when the Pope was head of all Catholic countries, even though each had their own Catholic king.  

    Quote
    I don’t expect to convince you right now. I only say be open to the possibility that Bergoglio is “the man of Sin.”
    The pope will not be the antichrist.  This is totally contrary to Scripture, the Holy Fathers and many, many prophecies.  You're way, way off.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #43 on: December 01, 2021, 03:41:49 PM »
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  • But is Angelus saying the Anti-Christ/False Prophet, etc is "the/a pope"?  He said he thinks it's Bergoglio.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: The Precursor vs The Mark
    « Reply #44 on: December 01, 2021, 03:52:53 PM »
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  • But I’m equally sure that an overly-literal reading such as yours will be shown to cause more grave errors.
    These aren't MY readings. Everything I said has either been a quote or paraphrase taken from a Church Father, a theologian, or a Church prelate like Fr. Berry and Fr. Kramer. My own speculations beyond these are rooted in them, not something interpreted on my own from Scripture alone as yours appear to be.

    I suggest you stop reading the Apocalypse itself and pick up The Apocalypse of St. John by Fr. Berry, The Book of Destiny by Fr. Kramer, or read what some Fathers like St. Hippolytus or St. Irenaeus said about the Antichrist. There's works like The End of the Present World by Fr. Arminjon, The Christian Trumpet by Rossi, (attached to this post) and The Present Crisis of the Holy See by Cdl. Manning.  Even the post-Conciliar work The Antichrist by Fr. Miceli is worth reading.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]