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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: cassini on April 29, 2025, 05:43:44 AM

Title: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: cassini on April 29, 2025, 05:43:44 AM
With the Vatican and St Peter's Square now under the attention of millions all over the world, few know the history of the obelisk towering above the most Catholic site on Earth. 

(https://i.imgur.com/OMziM7c.png)
Because of Dan Brown’s book Angels and Demons, many more ordinary folks are now aware of the talented Italian Baroque architect Gian Lorenzo Bernini (1598-1680), now famous for his legacy of beautiful sculptures and pieces of art that grace the eternal city of Rome and elsewhere. Brown however, took license to insert Bernini into his book as the one whose works in Rome contain all the clues to understanding the murders that resulted from a conflict of faith and science between Lucifer’s ‘light holding’ Illuminati and the Roman Catholic Church on the other. These clues, according to Brown’s story, are to be found in the hermetic and Rosicrucian symbols placed by Bernini in his various creations and structures. Again, we must emphasise that when Dan Brown conjured his story of Angels and Demons, he could not possibly have imagined how close to the truth he got, nor how unlucky he was in missing out on one of the most intriguing and fascinating stories attached to any of Bernini’s commissions, one that occurred when asked by Pope Alexander VII (1655-1667) to redesign St Peter’s Square.

Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ is a continuation of the Mysteries, the religious institutions of the sun-worshipping pagans. Among other things, there is a common legend as the explanation for their rites and symbols. This bond, common in the hermetic, Gnostic and cabbalistic writings, is Phallicism. In all of them, homage was paid either to the phallus as an object of adoration and worship, or as a symbol of the creative principle, or to the sun as the generative principle. It therefore became the basis of their sun worship, tree-worship, animal worship, serpent worship, and man worship.

‘Phallicism, fundamentally, is the deification and worship of the procreative or self-propagating power of the life of nature, that secret mysterious energy, endowment or power that animates all vegetable and animal creatures, and which perpetually dying, renews itself in new, similar yet different forms. Phallicists view this mysterious energy as the divine nature, and usually in the conception of the divine triad, the creator, the preserver and the destroyer of life, and worship and adore it as the deity. One of the most ancient as well as the most widespread forms of phallicism was sun worship, heliolatry, or light worship, Mithraism. In view of the divine command “Increase and multiply, and fill the Earth” (Gen.1:28), the generation of human life became a most solemn privilege, a pure and holy function. The Mystery of it must have impressed most profoundly the first human pair, and doubtless the first religious act on the part of Adam and Eve was an appreciation to the Source and Author of life for the power to procreate it. In the course of time this Author and Source became associated with the organs and factors of its reproduction, and then supplanted by them as an object of veneration and worship. The mysterious rite of connubial love became perverted, the imagination of man’s senseless heart became corrupt; the power of procreating life became deified and worshipped under phallic emblems, which in turn became the deities. The perversion continued until it culminated in many places and in diverse ages, in sacred prostitution. The phallic emblems became objects of adoration.’--- Martin Wagner

Lucifer, enraged because he was created without the power to generate, tries to overcome this creative and natural deficiency by proxy. It also is the reason Satan promotes sɛҳuąƖ acts that are not intended to ‘multiply,’ that is, not to produce children in marriage. This manifested itself in pagan belief wherein the sun, not God, is given the credit for ‘generating’ life on Earth. We see above how this came about, and below, that it continues today within Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and their rites and symbols.


‘The text goes on “To the ‘advanced enlightened ones,’ the adepts at the top, the nature worship is understood as the worship of the generative principles (i.e., the sex organs), particularly the phallus… the phallus, the male ‘generative principle’ has been worshipped as representing the Sun’s rays.’--- Albert Mackey.

Following from the above, it takes little imagination to see that ancient and Egyptian obelisks were also the most explicit of all phallic symbols, and what is written on them added to the mystery.’--- Dr Cathy Burns.

As a sign of its power in the world, pagan Rome transported many Egyptian monuments and artefacts for display throughout their city, more than any other conquering powers in the world. Obelisks were deemed ideal for this purpose. One such obelisk was the giant made out of solid granite, climbing 25 metres high and weighing in at over 320 tons and whose history showed it was made for ancient Egypt’s most sacred city Anu, known to the Greeks as Heliopolis, meaning ‘The City of the Sun,’ a city that had at its centre this heliocentric Sun Temple. This obelisk was unusual in that no hieroglyphics were written on it. The story goes that in 38AD, the tyrant cannibalistic pagan Emperor Caligula (12-41AD) ordered this obelisk be brought to Rome by ship and placed in the Vatican circus, a site where Christians were killed and sacrificed to demons. St Peter was martyred on this very spot thus giving the place eternal notoriety.


With the advent of Constantine the Great (272-337AD) and his concessions to Christianity throughout his empire and especially in the ancient city of Rome, the Emperor Constantine decided to allow this Vatican site to become the home of Catholicism, a special place to start its own spiritual and institutional empire. The great Basilica of St Peter’s rose from the ground here over the centuries, and other superb buildings were created for the business of running the Church. As for the obelisk of Heliopolis, well, while still on the site, providentially, it became redundant and faded into obscurity on some waste ground.

In the 15th century however, Pope Nicholas V (1447-1455), ‘whose plans were of embellishing the city with new monuments worthy of the capital of the Christian world,’ decided to do something with this obelisk, not to smash to bits this pagan symbol or have it taken out of the holy city, but to place it in front of the Basilica itself. To ‘Christianise’ the object, if such a vulgar symbolic thing could ever be Christianised, the Pope thought of placing the four Evangelists in bronze at its base and Jesus with a golden cross on the top. Providence stepped in, however, Pope Nicholas V died and this obelisk remained in the ditch where it surely belonged. A century later, Pope Sixtus V (1585-1590), named ‘the last of the Renaissance Popes,’ another pope who restored many buildings in Rome and elsewhere, was motivated to do what Pope Nicholas V was prevented by death from doing, move the special giant Heliopolis obelisk to the square in front of St Peter’s. Pope Sixtus V’s intention, we are told, differs, from the obelisk being a ‘needle pointing to heaven’ to one of a sign or display of the temporal power that the Church had at the time. On this occasion, the Pope decided to place horses around its base rather than the four Evangelists that Nicholas V intended to do. He also omitted the Christ figure on top envisaged by his predecessor, leaving instead what were regarded as remnants of the true cross in the bronze sphere already at the top of the pedestal. To this he added a star over three mountains, his own personal family crest, and finally on top, a golden cross.

   
Strange that neither pope thought of creating a worthy monument in St Peter’s Square, the greatest of all Christian reminders, a crucifix depicting the crucified Christ on the cross, like that in Brazil.


(https://i.imgur.com/7NMOsvW.png)

After the installation of the obelisk in 1586, a scandalous exercise we are led to believe, people being evicted out of their homes and properties to accommodate the new location (see Talisman), Pope Sixtus V decided it best to exorcise it and this was done with great liturgical aplomb. But all the blessings Rome could give this thing could not undo its original sun-god phallic symbolism. The irony of it all was that by placing a cross on the top of the obelisk, they actually recreated a more definitive representation of it when in the ‘City of the Sun,’ Anu-Heliopolis, the very place the symbolic phallic cut rock originally came from, for it too had a cross on top of it. All that was missing of the original site was a circle around its base with divisions of eight marked within it, ‘the standard pagan hieroglyphic indicator of a city.’

In 1655, the then Pope, Alexander VII, commissioned the now famous Bernini to redesign St Peter’s Square. This work was interrupted when King Louis XIV invited Bernini to Paris. On his return Bernini completed the work, marking out what looks like a circle with the obelisk at its centre point but in fact it is a ‘cosmic’ ellipse, with the phallic obelisk as its centre or generating point as Kepler, Newton and others used it to accommodate their heliocentrism. Bernini’s solution was to design a piazza in the form of an ellipse; the foci of the ellipse are indicated by marble and granite disks embedded within the pavement of the piazza. The elliptical shape also symbolizes the Church’s embrace of all of mankind, “the motherly arms of the church,” as Bernini described his Colonnade. But more than that for Bernini then filled the space with a large eight-rayed sun wheel design – a symbol of Ishtar. At the very centre of the larger wheel there was then created an inner four-pointed sun-wheel, the same symbol as found on the altar-stone in the temple of Baal.

Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: VerdenFell on April 29, 2025, 07:24:59 AM
Yawn.
This is getting tiresome and so very predictable. There's always some contemporary pseudo scholar 
who thinks they have uncovered some hidden occult network or design behind everything noble
our race has ever achieved. 
I think it began with Alexander Hislop's discredited The Two Babylons that claimed the Catholic Church was 
really just the cult of Astarte reborn.
This is a Jack Chick tract level smear job on Catholicism. 
It might come as a surprise to the historically ignorant that from the days of the earliest Church many pagan 
sites and temples were reconsecrated as Christian churches(the Pantheon is a notable example) 
Similarly many objects from antiquity were repurposed for their material or for their aesthetic appeal in various
monuments. 
If you bothered to read a biography on Bernini you might learn that he was an extremely devout man, attending mass every morning before beginning work. 
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2025, 07:51:19 AM
May I ask who wrote this?  Reminds me of a Solange Hertz exercise in creative writing.

In point of fact, there's no evidence that obelisks were phallic symbols.  It's easy to impose that interpretation on them, but we actually have some descriptions of the earliest ones in Egypt as being related to the sun god Aten, where it represents a ray of the sun, pointing up at the sun.  Related to this, some also believe that they served the purpose of being an astronomical marker and effectively a sun-dial.  And they were also installed as boundary markers where something on the top would basically say, "I, Emperor Such-and-Such lay claim to this territory".  In all such cases, it would be consistent with how the Church had appropriated other pagan symbols, by re-interpreting them.  So instead of the obelisk pointing up to the sun god, they point up to the Son of God (English pun, I understand, but the import is true).  It also symbolizes, with the cross on top, that Our Lord rules over the territory.  Finally, looking at it from above and viewing the rest of the architecture, it also looks like the part of a key that gets inserted into a lock to open it, referring to the keys of St. Peter.

While I'm fine with criticizing some of the garbage at the Vatican, including the pagan gods they keep in the Vatican museum.  I'd sell that garbage to museums around the world (you could probably get billions for it).  I'd also sandblast the Sistine chapel ceiling to remove Michaelangelo's homoerotic junk.

So I'm not opposed to criticizing the Vatican art/architecture (as if these popes were infallible in that regard or it would be considered impiety to do so) ... just that in the case of obelisks, I don't believe they were originally phallic symbols based on the actual evidence.  It's easy for people to imagine that due to the shape, but there can be other explanations, and the evidence points toward those other explanations.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: cassini on April 29, 2025, 07:52:42 AM
Yawn.
This is getting tiresome and so very predictable. There's always some contemporary pseudo scholar
who thinks they have uncovered some hidden occult network or design behind everything noble
our race has ever achieved.
I think it began with Alexander Hislop's discredited The Two Babylons that claimed the Catholic Church was
really just the cult of Astarte reborn.
This is a Jack Chick tract level smear job on Catholicism.
It might come as a surprise to the historically ignorant that from the days of the earliest Church many pagan
sites and temples were reconsecrated as Christian churches(the Pantheon is a notable example)
Similarly many objects from antiquity were repurposed for their material or for their aesthetic appeal in various
monuments.
If you bothered to read a biography on Bernini you might learn that he was an extremely devout man, attending mass every morning before beginning work.

Yes, like those who say Christmas day was taken over from the pagan feast of winter solstice whereas it had nothing to do with that. Personally I would prefer to see a large cross with Jesus crucified on it in St Peter's Square rather than that obelisk that has such a pagan history to it. Its installment had nothing to do with the Christian faith but with temporal demonstration. 



Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2025, 07:55:30 AM
Yawn.
This is getting tiresome and so very predictable. There's always some contemporary pseudo scholar
who thinks they have uncovered some hidden occult network or design behind everything noble
our race has ever achieved.

As mentioned, I'm not opposed to legitimate criticism, but this was clearly a Solange-Hertz-esque exercise in creative writing without any citations or evidence, etc.

I studied a lot of ancient art / architecture, etc. as part of the Ph. D. program in Greek/Latin at Catholic University, and there were a lot of things there too where they imposed interpretations on things due to biases where the ancient people were morons, and so everything was "magic" (when a lot of it may very well have been technological), etc.  Oh, those morons worshipped phalluses.  Yes, some primitive cultures did, but the more sophisticated ones that built the great monuments ... not so much.

In any case, the objective truth is that all the evidence points to these having been related to sun-god worship, where it points up to the sun, represents a ray of the sun, attempting to pay homage to the sun, and at the same time very likely was used as a sun-dial (time tracking) and astrological tracking device.  It's why it had the 4 sides, so you could get the orientations towards the "four corners" of the earth, etc.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2025, 08:01:37 AM
Yes, like those who say Christmas day was taken over from the pagan feast of winter solstice whereas it had nothing to do with that. Personally I would prefer to see a large cross with Jesus crucified on it in St Peter's Square rather than that obelisk that has such a pagan history to it. Its installment had nothing to do with the Christian faith but with temporal demonstration.

Sure, one could argue for a large crucifix, but that doesn't mean the Masonic-Phallic stuff in that post is true.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2025, 10:16:21 AM
Perhaps a helpful analogy would be to think that a great many churches, and even some great cathedrals, had a central steeple or tower that rose up.  Are those phallic as well?  Or are they pointing upward, toward heaven, catching the eye, and reminding the faithful that the Church is there, pointing to God in Heaven above?  All available evidence suggests that the latter is also what obelisks were originally meant to do also, point upward (in their case toward the sun god, catch the eye, remind people of who ruled there, etc.).
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: cassini on April 29, 2025, 01:02:29 PM
So, according to some, the most famous obelisk on Earth, because it now dominates st Peter's Square, must now be classed as a mere Pagan Egyptian ornament that has no history of being a phallic symbol or any such thing.

The history of the Egyptian cult consists of facts, mysteries and myths. Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1823) for example, the Augustinian nun, wrote:

‘Semiramis was very highly honoured in Egypt where, by her intrigues and diabolical arts, she greatly contributed to the spread of idolatry. I saw her in Memphis, where human sacrifices are common, plotting and practicing magic and astrology. It was Semiramis who here planned the first pyramid; it was built on the eastern bank of the Nile. The whole nation had to assist in its construction… This building was the centre of Egyptian idolatry, astrology, witchcraft, abominable impurity, astrologers and necromancers calling up spirits of the dead dwelt in the pyramid and there conjured up diabolical visions… ---Anne Catherine Emmerich

The Egyptians were led by a pharaoh. His function was to maintain the order of the universe, embracing not only the social and political structure of Egypt, but also the laws of nature, the movement of the heavenly bodies, the rotation of the seasons and the flood control of the River Nile. Two of the most prominent gods were Re and Anu, the sun gods. In Greece, cities such as Heliopolis ‘the City of the Sun,’ where the innocent Vatican obelisk came from, were built in the sun-god’s image. These places regularly contained temples; sun temples ‘that once formed the sacred heart of ancient Egyptian spirituality.’ The structure of such temples more often than not communicated a heliocentric system of six planets situated around a central fire that symbolised their sun. It was Bernini who built and shaped St Peter's Square to symbolise the heliocentric heresy, even shaping it as an elipse not a circle. Then there were the pyramids, built as a stairway to the gods of the sky, their ‘towers of Babel.’ Finally, the phallic obelisks [bel], built ten times higher than their width, were consecrated to the sun-god, which, according to the historian Pliny the Elder, is the meaning of the word in Egyptian.

Dr. Stuart R. Crane wrote: ‘In the succeeding centuries the rise of the Christian revolution swept away the surface observance of the old Mystery-religions in the Western world, and the Priest-Cults everywhere were forced to retire in disorder and to, in fact, go underground. But though the operations of the Ancient Religion have been overshadowed, in our minds, by the rise of Christianity, this religion did not die out. It continued to operate and to function and has remained the dominant religion in those lands and among those peoples who did not accept Christ. The Priestly Classes of this religion reformed its ranks and modified its tactics to respond to the Christian challenge. They adopted as their mode of operation the use of secrecy, deception, and the technique of infiltration, as methods in this struggle which they viewed as a Holy War against Christianity. The sɛҳuąƖ and fertility elements of the religions of Baal and of Isis and Osiris were continued but were concealed from the profane publicly under the doctrines of the worship of Platonic ideals such as the “Nobility of Mankind,” and “Humanity,” and of “The Brotherhood of Man.” “Human Reason” and the “Mechanism of Blind Nature” were put forth as the ultimate forces now operating in the universe. Secret societies of the “Learned” or “Wise Men” were formed and scientific inquiry was continued in the form of medieval Astronomy, Alchemy, and Sorcery. But, again, this was scientific inquiry not for the altruistic purpose of the development of pure learning, but a search for the secrets of nature which the Priestly Class could still employ as “magic;” secrets with which they could control the rest of humanity. The names and titles of the adepts and leaders of this Religion are familiar to us still though we, recently, have not taken them very seriously. They were called “All-Wise Ones” or “Wizards” or “Magicians” or “Scientists,” and those who dealt with the spirit world were, and still are, called “Witches,” “Warlocks,” and “Sorcerers.' Being a secret religious order, they adopted an elaborate symbology to be used as signs of recognition and communication between those who understood the secrets of the religion; they employed signs such as the sign of the Pyramid, Triangles, the Radiant Circle as the symbol of the Sun and of their god; Five pointed and six pointed stars, the sprig of the Acacia tree as a symbol of Life, and the Obelisk, and many other symbols plus secret signs and grips…. They spoke of the god of this Religion as being the “Original Life Force,” or as the “Divine Fire,” or as the “Prime Mover,” or as “The Great Architect of the Universe.” But finally, though these are the outward trappings of their god shown to the followers at the lower and middle levels, the leaders could not avoid the necessity of coming to conclusions when dealing with matters of the Deity. The more extreme leaders now adopted, if they had not originally done so, as the god of their worship, the Prince of this World, Satan and his Angels as their ultimate Lord and aid in this Holy War against Christ and His message. This organized group, whose ultimate god is Satan, existed in Ancient times, it existed in the Middle Ages, and it exists today.’--- Dr. Stuart R. Crane, lecturer supreme: The Other Religion, 1976.

Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Giovanni Berto on April 29, 2025, 01:25:53 PM
Phallic or not, that thing comes from Paganism, and it does not look like it has been Christianized enough. I would like to see a reasonable explanation for the design of that strange piazza which does not involve some occult or Pagan logic.

I find it puzzling how far some people will go to defend those terrible Popes who promoted the Renaissance arts.

Of course this is no big deal, considering the very serious problems that we have nowadays, when Popes (?) not only promote Pagan art but are Pagan themselves, placing other gods statues on the altars that were once dedicated to the one true God.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: VerdenFell on April 29, 2025, 01:56:49 PM
In a world of internet porn, gαy pride month, planned parenthood, celebrity worship, ghetto culture,
you're worried about an obelisk?
REALLY?
Exactly how many of the millions of tourists visiting Rome looked up at the obelisk and were inspired to
join some ancient phallic cult?
I'll answer that for you...ZERO
That's precisely the same number of people who visit the Louvre, take a selfie beside the Venus de Milo, 
and decide to become a devotee of that goddess. 


Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2025, 09:52:01 PM
Phallic or not, that thing comes from Paganism, and it does not look like it has been Christianized enough. I would like to see a reasonable explanation for the design of that strange piazza which does not involve some occult or Pagan logic.

I find it puzzling how far some people will go to defend those terrible Popes who promoted the Renaissance arts.

Of course this is no big deal, considering the very serious problems that we have nowadays, when Popes (?) not only promote Pagan art but are Pagan themselves, placing other gods statues on the altars that were once dedicated to the one true God.

I'm not defending anything just because they were Popes.  As mentioned, I would sandblast Michaelangelo's homo-erotic stuff off there.  I believe, however, that there's nothing wrong with Christianizing the obelisk.  There's a long Tradition, for instance, of early Christians appropriating the image of Helios (the pagan sun God) iconographically to Christ, presenting Him in the same way.  Church converted MANY pagan Roman temples into churches.  We have the Christmas tree, Easter eggs, the very word "Easter" ... all of which the Prots have denounced without understanding that the Church has long appropriated and transformed pagan symbols into Christian ones, and that very practice is actually symbolic of how the Church has converted many pagan nations and Christianized them.

If I did find legitimate reasons to consider them objectionable, I would not hesitate saying so because some possibly wordly and corrupt Renaissance pope decided it was OK.  You'll find that I regularly denounce the exaggeration of papal infallibility and excessive unthinking piety toward them as if they were inerrant demigods in all their actions, and never in a million years would even imply that their artistic and architectural decisions were somehow protected by the Holy Ghost where it would be impious to criticize them.

I simply disagree that obelisks are anywhere near being in the same category as some degenerate / homoerotic stuff, being a symbol pointing upward to Heaven (with Christians differing in terms of who it's pointing up to, clarifying by putting a cross at the top), also being a sign of who runs / owns / has claim to and authority over the territory in which it's visible, also doubling in St. Peter's for a symbol of the key (St. Peter's keys ... see the shape of the entire square), and with the 4 sides pointing to all 4 corners of the world (notice in Easter Vigil how priest sprinkles holy water toward the 4 corners of the earth) ... it all fits and is actually one of the mildest appropriations of pagan symbols, provided one doesn't start seeing phalluses everywhere there's something having that kind of shape and orientation.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Ladislaus on April 29, 2025, 09:54:35 PM
In a world of internet porn, gαy pride month, planned parenthood, celebrity worship, ghetto culture,
you're worried about an obelisk?
REALLY?
Exactly how many of the millions of tourists visiting Rome looked up at the obelisk and were inspired to
join some ancient phallic cult?
I'll answer that for you...ZERO
That's precisely the same number of people who visit the Louvre, take a selfie beside the Venus de Milo,
and decide to become a devotee of that goddess.

Right, it's the same thing with, say, Christmas trees ... wondering how many people are tempted to worship the tree or some ancient woodland god that the tree may have represented at one time.  Now, some with minds conditioned by our degenerate society might think, "oh, look, a phallus", but then these same ones might have the same thoughts every time they see a cucuмber at a supermarket.

Perhaps when all heresy and sin have been uprooted, the Pope might consider convening a Council to determine the Church's attitude toward obelisks and demolish them, but until the Church has so little better to do than consider that question, there are much bigger fish to fry.  I'm certain, for instance, that the reason quite a few popes didn't deal with Homoangelo's Sistine chapel paintings, where you go to elevate the Sacred Host only to see male genitalia behind it ... is because they were too busy and considered it much lower priority, and may have not given it much thought as they did not regularly offer Mass in that chapel (which typically was just a museum except for conclaves).  I do the same thing at home, where I keep forgetting to deal with issues in rooms that I don't use often.  Then when once in a while I go in there, I am reminded, "Oh, I need to do something about this ... broken handle [or whatever]." ... and then by five minutes after I left the room my attention has turned elsewhere until I am reminded again the next time I go in there.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Giovanni Berto on April 29, 2025, 10:27:18 PM
I'm not defending anything just because they were Popes.  As mentioned, I would sandblast Michaelangelo's homo-erotic stuff off there.  I believe, however, that there's nothing wrong with Christianizing the obelisk.  There's a long Tradition, for instance, of early Christians appropriating the image of Helios (the pagan sun God) iconographically to Christ, presenting Him in the same way.  Church converted MANY pagan Roman temples into churches.  We have the Christmas tree, Easter eggs, the very word "Easter" ... all of which the Prots have denounced without understanding that the Church has long appropriated and transformed pagan symbols into Christian ones, and that very practice is actually symbolic of how the Church has converted many pagan nations and Christianized them.

If I did find legitimate reasons to consider them objectionable, I would not hesitate saying so because some possibly wordly and corrupt Renaissance pope decided it was OK.  You'll find that I regularly denounce the exaggeration of papal infallibility and excessive unthinking piety toward them as if they were inerrant demigods in all their actions, and never in a million years would even imply that their artistic and architectural decisions were somehow protected by the Holy Ghost where it would be impious to criticize them.

I simply disagree that obelisks are anywhere near being in the same category as some degenerate / homoerotic stuff, being a symbol pointing upward to Heaven (with Christians differing in terms of who it's pointing up to, clarifying by putting a cross at the top), also being a sign of who runs / owns / has claim to and authority over the territory in which it's visible, also doubling in St. Peter's for a symbol of the key (St. Peter's keys ... see the shape of the entire square), and with the 4 sides pointing to all 4 corners of the world (notice in Easter Vigil how priest sprinkles holy water toward the 4 corners of the earth) ... it all fits and is actually one of the mildest appropriations of pagan symbols, provided one doesn't start seeing phalluses everywhere there's something having that kind of shape and orientation.


I was actually not criticizing you. I was talking more generally. Some people seem to think that every Pope from St. Peter to Pius XII was a saint, as you have laready pointed out.

Good catch about the key shape of the square. I had never noticed it.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: Horatius on April 30, 2025, 01:57:56 AM
I don't mean to step on the toes of most of the posters on this thread but I think a lot of the beauty and depth of Rome is lost on moderns because we don't understand the aim of Roman civilization. Rome since its beginning focused on channeling greatness, excellence. Ancient Romans believed that their city and nation was founded by the Gods to be an instrument of Justice and Nobility on earth. This drove the almost ridiculous need for Roman conquest of its neighbours. 

Now, one of the most hallmark celebrations of Roman excellence was the magnificent display of their spoils of war or "trophies." The Romans would do this by bringing the "trophies" of victory back to the city of Rome and parading them around with great pomp. History records Roman generals parading through the city the leaders of conquered enemy armies and their personal weapons. This was also done with the great treasures of enemy civilisations. The obelisks, the rostra of enemy ships, the silver treasures from the Jєωιѕн temple, etc...

Now God did not annihilate Rome, He converted it. So what could be more fitting in the symbolism of our great religion than for all of the glory of the pagan city of Rome to now be subject to the true conqueror of the world, Christ? All of the trophies, skeletons, and spoils, indeed the skeleton of pagan Rome itself now lie at the feet of Roman Catholic Church. Even regarding the pagan religious monuments like the obelisks, which I am totally willing to believe are symbols of phallicism, I think are fittingly put on display in Rome, being topped by crosses. The pagans worshipped the phallus as the source of life, but this has been conquered by the Cross of Our Lord, the Tree of the Cross, true source of life.
Title: Re: The obelisk in St Peter's Square
Post by: cassini on April 30, 2025, 06:34:05 AM
Phallic or not, that thing comes from Paganism, and it does not look like it has been Christianized enough. I would like to see a reasonable explanation for the design of that strange piazza which does not involve some occult or Pagan logic.

Two close acquaintances of the Pope Urban VIII's were Galileo and Lorenzo Bernini. Then there was Bernini’s friend, Fr Athanasius Kircher SJ (1602-1680), a Jesuit, who devoted his life to researching many things without distinction. Fr Kircher, a Jesuit of his time, studied all in the context of God’s design and plan for the world, a man who was a true ‘Father of science.’ Fr Kircher adhered in his books to the geocentric writings of the Old Testament. When it came to the natural order of the universe, he followed the universal system of Tycho. Fr Kircher also delved deeply into the electromagnetism he believed penetrated the whole universe (and God created light- an effect of magnetism). A brilliant historian, mathematician and linguist (20 languages), Fr Kircher also specialised in all things Egyptian and set up a museum for this purpose. Because of this he was invited to study and lecture at the Jesuit College in Rome in 1635, a mere two years after Galileo’s trial. One of the subjects Fr Kircher devoted his time to was trying to interpret the Egyptian hieroglyphs on their obelisks, an understanding he believed he mastered, reading into them profound mysteries and wisdom. With the passage of time and greater study, men like Jean-François Champollion (1790-1832) and Fr Fernand Crombette (1880-1970) found the hieroglyphs on these obelisks were no more than records of the names of the kings of Egypt since the time of the Flood. It was Fr Kircher’s mistaken interpretation - that the ‘writings’ and signs on Egypt’s ancient obelisks referred to the Trinity God – that made them worthy of preservation and display. For this reason then, churchmen ‘embraced these prophetic obelisks’ and erected many of them in the squares of Rome.

‘Before leaving this subject, we should recall that the suppression of the Jesuits in 1773 was prompted by the “rights of man” illuminists and Masons. When the Jesuits were suppressed, the Church lost her first line of defence in the “war of science against the Church”. The crime of their suppression is one of the worst in the world. Within one generation, the new “scientifically” educated youth embarked on wholesale revolution. The Reign of Terror in France, in 1796, was led by the first generation of non-Jesuit educated men. Every monarchy in Europe fell to revolution. Replaced with Republican, anti-Catholic governments, Europe was changed forever. By the end of 1850, the Masons had revolutionized every Catholic country in Europe and the America’s. Science was “enthroned” as the state religion. Heliocentricity became “fact”; and the Galileo Award became the highest Masonic award for outstanding “citizenship.”’--- KIPDF website: A study by John W. DeTar

To which we could add, that, unlike their predecessors, most of the post-1820 Jesuits took up the heliocentric ‘science’ baton and all it revolutionised.

   
In 1655, the then Pope, Alexander VII, commissioned the now famous Bernini to redesign St Peter’s Square. This work was interrupted when King Louis XIV invited Bernini to Paris. On his return Bernini completed the work, marking out what looks like a circle with the obelisk at its centre point but in fact it is a ‘cosmic’ ellipse, with the phallic obelisk as its centre or generating point as Kepler, Newton and others used it to accommodate their heliocentrism. Bernini’s solution was to design a piazza in the form of an ellipse; the foci of the ellipse are indicated by marble and granite disks embedded within the pavement of the piazza. The elliptical shape also symbolizes the Church’s embrace of all of mankind, “the motherly arms of the church,” as Bernini described his Colonnade. But more than that for Bernini then filled the space with a large eight-rayed sun wheel design – a symbol of Ishtar. At the very centre of the larger wheel there was then created an inner four-pointed sun-wheel, the same symbol as found on the altar-stone in the temple of Baal. All of course symbols taken on board Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

‘Coincidence? Could some secret group, capable of sustaining influence over the papacy over many decades, have understood ancient hieroglyphs long before scholars learned to read them in the 19th century? Anu-Heliopolis was the archetypal ‘City of the Sun’ that Bruno and Campanella were determined to restore.’--- Talisman, p.305.

 ‘Satan uniquely entered the Catholic Church at some point over the last century, or even before. For over a century, the organizers of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, Liberalism, and Modernism infiltrated the Catholic Church in order to change her doctrine, her liturgy and her mission from something supernatural to something secular.’--- (Taylor Marshall, LifeSiteNews, October 4, 2019.)

So, what happened in the last century or long before that gave birth to Modernism in the Catholic Church by way of ‘Satan’ introducing changes from the traditional supernatural doctrine of Catholicism to a faith based on the secular that led to the demise of traditional Catholic faith on Earth? Well, from 1741 to 1835 and thereafter, for the first time in the history of the Church, popes began to adopt and promote a secular story of Creation rather than abide by the supernatural one of traditional Catholicism. In Scripture, it literally states in 67 places, that the sun (and stars) turn around God’s footstool, the Earth, created fixed at the centre of the universe (geocentrism), a revelation held by all the Fathers and popes of the Church up to that time. Accordingly, the early Church had condemned as heresy the old pagan belief that the Earth moves around a fixed-sun (heliocentrism).This was the same Biblical meaning proposed by Galileo who claimed that the references to a moving-sun in Scripture were metaphors, not literal, an assertion rejected by Pope Paul V in 1616, with Galileo being tried later in 1633 by Pope Urban VIII’s Inquisition, at which he was found guilty of suspected heresy. It was this change of Biblical meaning that began the revision of Church doctrine, her liturgy and her mission from something supernatural to something secular.

And that is how Satan, the Father of lies, using the obelisk in ST Peter's Square after Galileo's trial installed heresy into the womb of the Church that brought about popes like Francis and the empty Catholic churches worldwide.