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Author Topic: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)  (Read 15867 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2024, 06:39:52 AM »
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  • Elwin:  were you always sedevacantist? Or did you change your position?  For some reason I always thought you were R&R.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #76 on: February 26, 2024, 06:43:42 AM »
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  • No, because there has not been a pope since 1958 (or possibly 1963) to canonise [sic] these heretics.
    That's your opinion, you do not accept this, but that's all it is.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #77 on: February 26, 2024, 06:55:41 AM »
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  • They apply to legitimate Popes, period.  You claim they're legitimate popes.  Ergo, their opinions would apply.
    Nope. If you believe that they should or do apply, then regardless of your opinion re: sedeism (which means nothing), you have to accept that the heretic popes are in heaven. 


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    This entire time you attacked me from valuing my opinion too highly, where it's you who cling to your opinion over and against those of a vast body of theological opinion, and I am the one in conformity with the opinion of all these theologians.
    Wrong again. The NO is not the Catholic Church, the opinions of the Fathers apply to Catholic canonizations, not NO canonizations.


    The pope can define, declare and pronounce that the sky is green, that all birds have no wings and that heretics are in heaven and he can do this without ever impugning his infallibility, because per V1, his infallibility only applies to doctrines concerning faith or morals.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #78 on: February 26, 2024, 07:02:40 AM »
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  • Elwin:  were you always sedevacantist? Or did you change your position?  For some reason I always thought you were R&R.
    Strictly speaking, I have only been a sedevacantist (non-dogmatic) since about 2014 when the full reality of the Bergoglio usurpation slapped me upside the head.

    Theologically, I am a sedeprivationist and have been so for nearly 20 years. Before then I waffled between R&R and sedevacantist. I see that Bergoglio never obtained a valid election so sedeprivationist theory cannot be applied to him. When next person obtains a valid election, we shall have to see if he is a formal pope or only material.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline cassini

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #79 on: February 26, 2024, 07:22:26 AM »
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  • Just came across this interesting debate. Is common sense not allowed in such matters of Catholicism. Am I compelled to believe all those popes canonised after Vatican II are saints lined up with the likes of St Pius X? If I don't am I committing a sin? For me a saint is someone who represented traditional Catholicism in everything they said and did. It is perfectly obvious to me that popes canonised after Vatican II were canonised to make Vatican II look like the most Catholic council in the history of the Church. 
    For me then, whereas, like sedevacantism, I am not allowed to judge if a canonisation is legal or not, I for one do not address these canonised modernist popes as St John XIII, St Paul VI and St John Paul II for the simple reason that more souls left the Catholic Church in their reigns that did at the Protestant reformation. If I am compelled to consider these men as saints then Catholicism is an absurd religion.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #80 on: February 26, 2024, 07:23:39 AM »
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  • because per V1, his infallibility only applies to doctrines concerning faith or morals.
    A canonisation obliges the faithful to venerate a person as indeed being a part of the Church Triumphant and is worthy of imitation on account of heroic virtue. A priest is obligated to offer the Mass of a canonised person on his assigned feast day, using the propers or common prayers for that person.

    When the Church obliges, this is a moral imperative. It belongs by its nature to the moral order. Failure in obedience would constitute grave sin.

    According to the common opinion of the doctors, canonisation is an inffallible action of the Church's teaching authority. The opposite would be a moral disaster, namely, that the Church might oblige the veneration of a person who has not attained heaven and put forward someone lacking in virtue or, worse, empty of grace.

    This is why the question of the Papal Occupancy / Vacancy is so crucial today! False canonisations -- as clearly some contemporary "canonisations" are -- cannot be the action of a valid pope.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #81 on: February 26, 2024, 07:24:21 AM »
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  • Theologically, I am a sedeprivationist and have been so for nearly 20 years. ... I see that Bergoglio never obtained a valid election so sedeprivationist theory cannot be applied to him. When next person obtains a valid election, we shall have to see if he is a formal pope or only material.

    I tried to make this distinction also, but it was lost on some, including Pontrello, who attacked me for this same basic distinction, unable to get his brain around it.

    I am a sedeprivationist in principle, or, as you put it, theologically.  I too hold, however, that it does not apply in practice, though I'm personally a believer in the Siri Thesis, convinced that neither Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, nor Wojtyla had legitimate election, since Cardinal Siri was the rightful pope.  By the time we get to Ratzinger, since these men weren't even materially in possession of office, the remaining Cardinals were no longer legitimate, not to mention that Ratzinger and Bergoglio were likely not bishops and therefore wouldn't be able to fully exercise papal authority (with Bergoglio doubtfully being even a priest).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #82 on: February 26, 2024, 07:28:31 AM »
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  • The opposite would be a moral disaster, namely, that the Church might oblige the veneration of a person who has not attained heaven and put forward someone lacking in virtue or, worse, empty of grace.

    Indeed, the Church cannot create "moral disasters" for the faithful ... despite what R&R claim.  That's contrary to the protection and guidance of the Church by the Holy Ghost.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #83 on: February 26, 2024, 07:44:01 AM »
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  • According to the common opinion of the doctors, canonisation is an inffallible action of the Church's teaching authority. The opposite would be a moral disaster, namely, that the Church might oblige the veneration of a person who has not attained heaven and put forward someone lacking in virtue or, worse, empty of grace.
    For the umpteenth time, the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church, as such, the Catholic Church is not obliging anyone to the veneration of heretic popes canonized in the conciliar church.

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    This is why the question of the Papal Occupancy / Vacancy is so crucial today! False canonisations -- as clearly some contemporary "canonisations" are -- cannot be the action of a valid pope.
    Beyond a passing thought, there is no reason to question papal occupancy / vacancy to the point of making the idea of sedeism foundational to your faith, which is the situation that you are in. False canonizations happened for a reason - to deceive everyone and anyone who allows themselves to be deceived. 

    As cassini said above: "Is common sense not allowed in such matters of Catholicism."




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #84 on: February 26, 2024, 08:01:31 AM »
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  • Strictly speaking, I have only been a sedevacantist (non-dogmatic) since about 2014 when the full reality of the Bergoglio usurpation slapped me upside the head.

    Theologically, I am a sedeprivationist and have been so for nearly 20 years. Before then I waffled between R&R and sedevacantist. I see that Bergoglio never obtained a valid election so sedeprivationist theory cannot be applied to him. When next person obtains a valid election, we shall have to see if he is a formal pope or only material.
    OK, thank you. I must be confusing you with another member then.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #85 on: February 26, 2024, 08:46:47 AM »
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  • For the umpteenth time, the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church ...

    Where it comes to canonizations the Pope is the Church, and you claim these are legitimate Popes.  You are attributing bogus canonizations to the Catholic Papacy and therefore to the Church.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #86 on: February 26, 2024, 08:50:29 AM »
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  • Beyond a passing thought, there is no reason to question papal occupancy / vacancy to the point of making the idea of sedeism foundational to your faith, which is the situation that you are in. False canonizations happened for a reason - to deceive everyone and anyone who allows themselves to be deceived.

    Absolutely you have to question the papacies of the V2 papal claimants.  If you question the canonizations, you must question their papacy.  Otherwise, you're questioning THE PAPACY as an office, its protection by the Holy Ghost and the Church's protection by the Holy Ghost.  You throw the entire Papacy under the bus, and the Church under the bus, in order to preserve the individual papacies of Roncalli, Montini, et al.

    You attitude toward the Church, that the Papacy can become corrupt and require the faithful to separate from it is different in no way from the claims made by the Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants.  Each of these heretical/schismatic groups claimed that the Papacy had veered off the path of True Christianity, for the Old Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, from the path of Tradition ... and you follow them into heresy and schism.

    You either have to accept the Conciliar Church as essentially Catholic or you have to reject the claims to the papacy made by the V2 "popes".  There's no other alternative if you wish to keep the Catholic faith ... which you are in great danger of losing, if you haven't already lost it.  Barring allowances made for subjective confusion on your part due to the Crisis, you would have to be treated as a manifest heretic and excommunicated from membership in the Church.

    I've pleaded with R&R to consider the position articulated by a Father Chazal (whom you still consider R&R), and yet you pertinaciously refuse to do so.  Or at least adopt the attitude of Archbishop Lefebvre, where he stated clearly that 1) this degree of destruction is incompatible with the promises of Christ for the papacy, the protection and guidance of the papacy by the Holy Ghost, 2) that it's possible that these men are not popes, 3) but I'm not 100% sure what's going on, so I defer to the Church's judgment.  But you reject principle #1 above, which puts you into a state of manifest heresy and schism.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #87 on: February 26, 2024, 09:39:00 AM »
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  • Absolutely you have to question the papacies of the V2 papal claimants.  If you question the canonizations, you must question their papacy.  Otherwise, you're questioning THE PAPACY as an office, its protection by the Holy Ghost and the Church's protection by the Holy Ghost.  You throw the entire Papacy under the bus, and the Church under the bus, in order to preserve the individual papacies of Roncalli, Montini, et al.
    I'm not throwing the papacy which you've abolished, under the bus. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with preserving individual popes. I know you cannot grasp this, but this is due to your obsession with nothing at all, which is exactly what a vacant chair actually is. It has everything to do with not caring what heretical popes say or do. Simple.

    You attitude toward the Church, that the Papacy can become corrupt and require the faithful to separate from it is different in no way from the claims made by the Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants.  Each of these heretical/schismatic groups claimed that the Papacy had veered off the path of True Christianity, for the Old Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, from the path of Tradition ... and you follow them into heresy and schism.

    The Church, which is Christ, can never become corrupt. You cannot seem to accept that Christ is the head of the Church, that every thing is in His hands and that nothing happens that He does not allow to happen - including popes who've corrupted themselves and people who themselves have chosen to be corrupted.

    You either have to accept the Conciliar Church as essentially Catholic or you have to reject the claims to the papacy made by the V2 "popes".  There's no other alternative if you wish to keep the Catholic faith ... which you are in great danger of losing, if you haven't already lost it.  Barring allowances made for subjective confusion on your part due to the Crisis, you would have to be treated as a manifest heretic and excommunicated from membership in the Church.

    There is no alternative for you as long as you make and dwell on the pope being something he is not. This rant here is based on YOUR OPINION that popes are not popes, because you make them into something they are not.

    I've pleaded with R&R to consider the position articulated by a Father Chazal (whom you still consider R&R), and yet you pertinaciously refuse to do so.  Or at least adopt the attitude of Archbishop Lefebvre, where he stated clearly that 1) this degree of destruction is incompatible with the promises of Christ for the papacy, the protection and guidance of the papacy by the Holy Ghost, 2) that it's possible that these men are not popes, 3) but I'm not 100% sure what's going on, so I defer to the Church's judgment.  But you reject principle #1 above, which puts you into a state of manifest heresy and schism.
    I don't care what Fr. Chazal's position is, if he is wrong or right does not matter, what matters is what is absolutely necessary for the salvation of everyone, namely, keep the faith, keep the commandments of God and His Church, be holy and be subject to the pope (see my sig). Everyone that does this will be an eternal success....whether the pope is pope or not.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse