Author Topic: Issues with NFP/Pius XII  (Read 3188 times)

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Offline CM

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Issues with NFP/Pius XII
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2009, 02:55:57 AM »
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  • That doesn't mean that amity cannot exist in a marriage, it can and most certainly should.  Your spouse should be your best friend on the earth, the one you trust enough that you would be willing to place the salvation of you children in his/her care.

    Offline CM

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #16 on: December 11, 2009, 02:57:00 AM »
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  • But "romance", as the world proposes it and hedonism are all too similar, so much so that I, for one, cannot tell the difference.


    Offline CM

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #17 on: December 11, 2009, 03:19:42 AM »
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  • What is the Father and the Holy Ghost without the Son?  What are a husband and wife without children?  Incomplete.

    Quote from: Tobias 6:16-22
    Then the angel Raphael said to him: Hear me, and I will shew thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil hath power. But thou when thou shalt take her, go into the chamber, and for three days keep thyself continent from her, and give thyself to nothing else but to prayers with her. And on that night lay the liver of the fish on the fire, and the devil shall be driven away. But the second night thou shalt be admitted into the society of the holy Patriarchs.

    And the third night thou shalt obtain a blessing that sound children may be born of you. And when the third night is past, thou shalt take the virgin with the fear of the Lord, moved rather for love of children than for lust, that in the seed of Abraham thou mayst obtain a blessing in children.


    When the horse and mule mate, they almost never bear offspring, but there have been documented cases.  Now isn't that interesting?  And yet we have the NFP crowd who admit that they are much less likely to conceive while performing NFP, but that because it's "open to life" they are not sinning, nor does the devil have power over them.  Right.

    GIVE


    ME


    A


    BREAK!




    By the way Raoul76, you may like to read Leviticus 15:24-33.

    Offline Jehanne

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #18 on: December 11, 2009, 05:19:22 AM »
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  • David,

    Just curious, how many children do you have?

    Don

    Offline CM

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #19 on: December 11, 2009, 05:57:50 AM »
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  • If I had children I would be in mortal sin, for I have no wife.  However, if you were to ask the same question to my Catholic friend Francis, he would answer "5".

    How many children would I like to have, were I married?  Like doesn't enter into it, as I have explained above.  But I would not get married until I was stable enough in temporal matters to support a family.  At the moment I can support myself quite adequately, but I would not do myself, my future wife and the Sacrament of Matrimony a disservice by presuming to be in any kind of temporal fitness to marry.


    Offline Belloc

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #20 on: December 11, 2009, 07:16:23 AM »
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  • CM, is Francis a real Catholic?

    You mean to tell me you are not, indeed, the last Catholic on the planet?

    ya made my day!
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline CM

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #21 on: December 11, 2009, 07:22:28 AM »
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  • Belloc, I have never claimed to think I was.  YOU have claimed that I think I am.

    I know many individuals who are Catholic.  But having all kinds of kids makes it hard for some of them to post on Cathinfo, and the older ones either don't have the interest, or what have you, so here I am, the single guy with a job that leaves me a fair amount of time (usually) for study, prayer and diverse other Catholic works.

    Offline Belloc

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #22 on: December 11, 2009, 07:27:18 AM »
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  • I am just glad to know you have good Catholic freinds and do not think you are alone.....no slight meant, happy to hear this!!
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #23 on: December 11, 2009, 08:52:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    Doing ANYTHING to impede birth has always been a mortal sin.  


    Mutual periodic abstinence is not a sin.

    1) It would be a sin to demand the marriage debt if  pregnancy would lead to something like the Chinese government forcing an abortion on your wife.

    2) It would also be a sin to refuse the marriage debt.

    Abstaining from intercourse during the fertile period is not a sin.  There is only the question of the legitimacy of the intentions.

    Your position on this is heresy.


    Offline Belloc

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #24 on: December 11, 2009, 09:02:11 AM »
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  • I think it always boils down to intentions.

    3 Conditions for Mortal Sin
    Grave matter
    Full knowledge
    Deliberate consent
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Jehanne

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #25 on: December 11, 2009, 09:28:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    If I had children I would be in mortal sin, for I have no wife.  However, if you were to ask the same question to my Catholic friend Francis, he would answer "5".

    How many children would I like to have, were I married?  Like doesn't enter into it, as I have explained above.  But I would not get married until I was stable enough in temporal matters to support a family.  At the moment I can support myself quite adequately, but I would not do myself, my future wife and the Sacrament of Matrimony a disservice by presuming to be in any kind of temporal fitness to marry.


    Yeah, that's the point, isn't it?  Marriage is more than just having children; it is also raising them.  I am glad that you at least acknowledged the financial aspect of it.


    Offline Belloc

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #26 on: December 11, 2009, 09:40:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: CM
    If I had children I would be in mortal sin, for I have no wife.  However, if you were to ask the same question to my Catholic friend Francis, he would answer "5".

    How many children would I like to have, were I married?  Like doesn't enter into it, as I have explained above.  But I would not get married until I was stable enough in temporal matters to support a family.  At the moment I can support myself quite adequately, but I would not do myself, my future wife and the Sacrament of Matrimony a disservice by presuming to be in any kind of temporal fitness to marry.


    Yeah, that's the point, isn't it?  Marriage is more than just having children; it is also raising them.  I am glad that you at least acknowledged the financial aspect of it.


    We could quote Pius XI in CC, but as CM has erased him from Papacy, would be useless, hence a large part of Catholic teaching is for CM out the window...for anyone else interested though:

    . ...any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.

    (Casti Connubii also acknowledges the unitive aspect of intercourse as licit):

    Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.

    So, marital sex is 1. procreation, but 2. unitative in that order...

    otherwise, it woudl be sinful for 2 70 yr olds to marry/sex....yes thy wshould be open to Abraham-like miracles, though unlikely....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Chi Roh

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    Issues with NFP/Pius XII
    « Reply #27 on: December 12, 2009, 06:41:39 AM »
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  • "...Cry God for Harry, England and Saint George!.."

     

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