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Author Topic: THE EARTHMOVERS  (Read 119271 times)

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Re: THE EARTHMOVERS
« Reply #575 on: January 28, 2018, 12:49:33 PM »
There is no reason to believe that I claimed that the Church supported pagan astrology.  Of course, she did not.  For most of history there was a close association between astronomy (a natural science supported by the Church) and astrology (a superstition which is not).  There was a similar relationship between the science of chemistry and the superstition of alchemy.

Aristotle and Plato were geocentrists who believed in a spherical earth.  Where did you get the idea they were heliocentrists?

I am not sure you mean by saying that everyone thought Galileo was right.  This was not true of his contemporaries.  It is true that the current popular view is greatly distorted and could reasonably be called revisionism.  This does not prove that your understanding is correct.
From Wiki
The earliest reliably docuмented mention of the spherical Earth concept dates from around the 6th century BC when it appeared in ancient Greek philosophy[1][2] but remained a matter of speculation until the 3rd century BC, when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the Earth as a physical given.
The concept of a spherical Earth displaced earlier beliefs in a flat Earth:

Re: THE EARTHMOVERS
« Reply #576 on: January 28, 2018, 01:06:24 PM »
From Wiki
The earliest reliably docuмented mention of the spherical Earth concept dates from around the 6th century BC when it appeared in ancient Greek philosophy[1][2] but remained a matter of speculation until the 3rd century BC, when Hellenistic astronomy established the spherical shape of the Earth as a physical given.
The concept of a spherical Earth displaced earlier beliefs in a flat Earth:
I do not understand why you posted this.  Is it supposed to be an answer to the question in my post about why you think that Aristotle and Plato are heliocentrists?

Wikipedia on Geocentric model :

Quote
... most educated Greeks from the 4th century BC on thought that the Earth was a sphere at the center of the universe.[12]
In the 4th century BC, two influential Greek philosophers, Plato and his student Aristotle, wrote works based on the geocentric model. According to Plato, the Earth was a sphere, stationary at the center of the universe.
There is no basis for using "geocentric" interchangeably with "flat-earth".  They are two different, independent things. One refers to planetary motion and the other to the shape of the earth.  


Re: THE EARTHMOVERS
« Reply #577 on: January 28, 2018, 03:07:11 PM »
There was never an official Church teaching about round earth geocentrism, but this is what was taught at the universities.  Since these were medieval Catholic institutions, it is reasonable to refer to that as Church support. 

There was no consensus among the Church Fathers on the shape of the earth.  Some believed it to be flat and some round.

If by "wider population" you mean the uneducated people, it is difficult to determine what they believed.  They did not leave records about what they thought of the shape of the earth or if they thought about it at all. While I agree there is no evidence to show that they accepted the round earth, neither is there evidence they believed it to be flat.

It is not reasonable at all to refer to this as church support. Errors push themselves in slowly. It would have crept in by the excuse that it was the domain of science. There is no evidence to show the the magesterium teaching round earthism ever. There is a difference between what was taught in some universities by some professors, and what Rome was teaching.

The majority of Fathers believed the Earth to be flat.

It is important as to what most ordinary people thought. All the evidence shows they did not accept the globe. Here are two examples which stand out

http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t145-hereford-cathedral-map-of-the-world
http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t141-hieronymus-bosch-15th-century-painter-flat-earth-painting

The latter is from the 15th century.

If you are tempted to scoff, remember that on such an issue, these kind of things are regarded as important evidence to judge what the popular opinion was. Historians are like detectives and deal with whatever evidence they have, even if it is sparse.


On the science of the flat earth....



Re: THE EARTHMOVERS
« Reply #578 on: January 28, 2018, 03:16:19 PM »
It is very hard to figure out what you would accept as evidence, since you appear to throw out any that does not support you.  There are countless sources to back up my claims about how Aristotle and Ptolemy were viewed in Christendom, but you have consistently rejected any that I have cited in the past.  Presumably you will accept a source that you yourself use.

The very same article on Ptolemy that you have been citing says of his work the Almagest:The Babylonian astronomical data contained "systematic records of astronomical observations." The use of these detailed observations is what gave the Ptolemaic model its impressive predictive power.  This is not a "pagan occult" practice but how natural science works.  One makes observations of physical phenomena, basing theories on them which one tests by their ability to predict results.  The Ptolemaic model was one of the longest lasting theories in the history of science, accepted for over a thousand years because it worked so well.

Your quote about distorted maps based on inaccurate data are from a section of the article discussing Ptolemy's work on geography and have nothing to do with his astronomical model.
Apparently you missed these two: "Ptolemy has been referred to as “a pro-astrological authority of the highest magnitude” and "Ptolemy's astrological outlook was quite practical: he thought that astrology was like medicine,..."

Re: THE EARTHMOVERS
« Reply #579 on: January 28, 2018, 03:31:15 PM »
I do not understand why you posted this.  Is it supposed to be an answer to the question in my post about why you think that Aristotle and Plato are heliocentrists?

Wikipedia on Geocentric model :
There is no basis for using "geocentric" interchangeably with "flat-earth".  They are two different, independent things. One refers to planetary motion and the other to the shape of the earth.  
Now this is what I'm talking about when you make statements but refuse to provide data to back it up.  Flat earth and fixed earth are aspects of the same geocentric model.  Round and moving earth are aspects of the heliocentric model.  The two are mutually exclusive even if during the attempt to overthrow geocentrism the spherical earth was considered possible by some who at the same time, refused to believe the earth was moving.  The fact is, both spherical earth (a pagan religious belief for the perfect deity) and moving earth around the sun (pagan heliocentric god) both originate from pagan occult science.