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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 6067 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #200 on: Yesterday at 08:25:11 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 08:03:51 AM
If you knew anything about mathematics and set theory, perhaps you would understand the concept of inclusion and exclusion, and perhaps you would understand what it means for a statement of truth to be compatible with another without conflict.

In short, your quotes are not incompatible with the BOB/BOD position, the problem is your interpretation which is entirely illogical.
You are the one who must [mis]interpret in order to make St. Paul's "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" mean there are 3 baptisms. Just fyi
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #201 on: Yesterday at 08:37:27 AM »
Getting back on topic...

1.  It's not necessary to believe that OT saints were baptized.  Some saints theorized they were, either in Limbo or being raised from the dead.  Either way, it has nothing to do with BOD, nor is it provable, nor is it required to be believed.  It's irrelevant for this discussion.

2.  BOB is not the same as BOD.  All the Church Fathers described BOB as being the sacrament, so really, there shouldn't be any BOB discussion in the context of BOD.  They have nothing in common.

3.  If one wants to believe in BOD, it is not heresy, provided that....
a.  They believe in the requirements set out by St Thomas, St Bellarmine, which means it ONLY applies to
b.  Formal catechumens taking formal classes to enter the faith.
c.  Follow the guidelines of the Holy Office's letter to missionaries in the US, which states that there is minimum requirements of belief,
d.  which agrees with St Thomas that for anyone to be baptized, they must AT MINIMUM, understand/accept the 2 doctrines of:
e.  the Incarnation and the Trinity.

4.  The conclusion of this is both simple and profound:
a.  Any pagan who does not know of/accept the Incarnation/Trinity, cannot receive BOD.
b.  Any muslim/hindu/jew etc cannot receive BOD, because they reject the Trinity and also that Christ is God and became man.
c.  Any person who wishes to receive BOD would have to REJECT THEIR FORMER "RELIGION" FIRST and then decide to become a catholic, taking classes.

5.  The notion of "implicit faith" is 1,000% heretical and it is found NOWHERE in any writing of saint, pope, doctor, etc.
a.  It is a modern notion, pushed by heretics, the same heretics who infiltrated the Church at V2.
b.  It is contrary to St Thomas, St Bellarmine and the Church Fathers.
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #202 on: Yesterday at 09:35:41 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 08:25:11 AM
You are the one who must [mis]interpret in order to make St. Paul's "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" mean there are 3 baptisms. Just fyi
One die can land on 6 faces, it's still one die. :facepalm:
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #203 on: Yesterday at 10:57:35 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 09:35:41 AM
One die can land on 6 faces, it's still one die. :facepalm:
:confused: Is that yet another misinterpretation? I have no idea what you're talking about. 
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #204 on: Yesterday at 11:01:06 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 08:37:27 AM
Getting back on topic...

1.  It's not necessary to believe that OT saints were baptized.  Some saints theorized they were, either in Limbo or being raised from the dead.  Either way, it has nothing to do with BOD, nor is it provable, nor is it required to be believed.  It's irrelevant for this discussion.

2.  BOB is not the same as BOD.  All the Church Fathers described BOB as being the sacrament, so really, there shouldn't be any BOB discussion in the context of BOD.  They have nothing in common.

3.  If one wants to believe in BOD, it is not heresy, provided that....
a.  They believe in the requirements set out by St Thomas, St Bellarmine, which means it ONLY applies to
b.  Formal catechumens taking formal classes to enter the faith.
c.  Follow the guidelines of the Holy Office's letter to missionaries in the US, which states that there is minimum requirements of belief,
d.  which agrees with St Thomas that for anyone to be baptized, they must AT MINIMUM, understand/accept the 2 doctrines of:
e.  the Incarnation and the Trinity.

4.  The conclusion of this is both simple and profound:
a.  Any pagan who does not know of/accept the Incarnation/Trinity, cannot receive BOD.
b.  Any muslim/hindu/jew etc cannot receive BOD, because they reject the Trinity and also that Christ is God and became man.
c.  Any person who wishes to receive BOD would have to REJECT THEIR FORMER "RELIGION" FIRST and then decide to become a catholic, taking classes.

5.  The notion of "implicit faith" is 1,000% heretical and it is found NOWHERE in any writing of saint, pope, doctor, etc.
a.  It is a modern notion, pushed by heretics, the same heretics who infiltrated the Church at V2.
b.  It is contrary to St Thomas, St Bellarmine and the Church Fathers.
1)My idea was that, when Christ ressurected from the dead, He made the New Law effective. The Old law was no longer effective.
However, the apostles didn't instantly teleport everywhere in the world to preach the gospels. So, necessarily, there was a delay to reach the people. During this delay, potentially hundreds of thousands or millions of people died without being able to get baptised, even if (had they heard of the gospels) they would have immediately asked for baptism. So, a)Does the Old Law apply to those people? b)Or does the New Law apply, with BOD?

2)BOD/BOB are terms used in order to describe the situation where "ordinary baptism" does not apply. They are not different sorts of baptism, it's one single baptism but in 3 specific conditions. 

3)I do not know the exact conditions for BOD to apply. 

4)I have no idea of the specific conditions. I believe that muslims and jews at the very least heard of the christian religion, so they should have been able to know about baptism as well. 

5)Can you define "implicit faith"? 
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