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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 5709 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #180 on: Yesterday at 06:46:18 AM »
Exactly like an NPC or a bot, after 10 pages of conversation you just reset and forgot that you were proven wrong definitely.

You are at the same level, if not lower, than Vatican II cultists.
You just keep changing your mind on what a BOD even is as you ignore infallible teachings from popes condemning the idea.

You have too many different versions and requirements for a BOD that always end with the same result - salvation via no sacrament at all.

 You preach V2's liberal idea that "sincerity outside of the Church is salvation inside the Church" - as you condemn to hell as heretics those who echo authentic, infallible Church teachings. You should try to avoid doing that from now on.  

 Remember St. Alphonsus said: "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary..." Trent condemns with anathema those who "saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation..."
  

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #181 on: Yesterday at 07:57:28 AM »
The fact of the matter is that the Church has venerated Saints subject to baptism of blood for 1700 years, so we can be certain that at least baptism of blood is true. The feyneite doctrine denies this basic fact, which if enough for proving that this doctrine is incorrect. We have already covered far than enough material to prove that feyneism is a false doctrine.

My primary concern was proving that the catechumens who died as martyrs are indeed Saints.

Implicit desire is indeed taught by Vatican II, but just because Vatican II cultists say one thing doesn't mean it is false. Otherwise, we'd have to reject the Trinity under the pretext that Vatican II heretics believe in it.

Vatican II cultists claim that when pagans or buddhists pray to their false idols that they are unconsciously praying to God or angels and that somehow God created all fake religions in order to save specific people.
Refuting this disgusting polytheist cult does not require denying baptism of desire or baptism of blood.
For the nth time, baptism of blood, as explained by the Chruch fathers WAS THE SACRAMENT, with valid matter (blood) and form (by the angels).  BOB is a misnomer.  It’s not a separate thing.  It is the sacrament.  

You are equating BOB with BOD which is false.  

Two, catechumens were baptized under persecutions.  So, again, a catechumen RECEIVED THE SACRAMENT (not BOD) either before they were imprisoned or by angels before death.  BOD does not apply.  

Third, absolutely no saint ever supported implicit faith, which is heresy.  Nobody did.  Stop this nonsense.  

BOd has NOTHING to do with any examples above.  You are misled and confused because you only have a surface level knowdge.  


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #182 on: Yesterday at 08:28:22 AM »
You just keep changing your mind on what a BOD even is as you ignore infallible teachings from popes condemning the idea.

You have too many different versions and requirements for a BOD that always end with the same result - salvation via no sacrament at all.

 You preach V2's liberal idea that "sincerity outside of the Church is salvation inside the Church" - as you condemn to hell as heretics those who echo authentic, infallible Church teachings. You should try to avoid doing that from now on. 

 Remember St. Alphonsus said: "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary..." Trent condemns with anathema those who "saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation..."
 
Arguing with people with no logical skills is difficult. If you can't even spot the sophistry in your own arguments what am I supposed to do? 


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #183 on: Yesterday at 08:29:14 AM »
The fact of the matter is that the Church has venerated Saints subject to baptism of blood for 1700 years, so we can be certain that at least baptism of blood is true. The feyneite doctrine denies this basic fact, which if enough for proving that this doctrine is incorrect. We have already covered far than enough material to prove that feyneism is a false doctrine.

My primary concern was proving that the catechumens who died as martyrs are indeed Saints.
Lazarus,

I have never seen a Catholic who does not believe in BOD/BOB, "Feeneyite" or otherwise, also reject anyone held to be a Saint by the Church. You might find some people who believe there hasn't been a true Pope in 1000 years, 500 years, or since Pius IX or Benedict XV, etc. who reject certain Saints, but the average Catholic who does not hold BOD does not say such a thing

The Catholic who does not hold BOD simply believes that those Saints, whose recorded life seems to indicate that they died without the actual Sacrament, actually received the Sacrament of Baptism before death. That's all. (Personally, I think Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 1334 seems to confirm this)

In fact, even if one was to believe that BOD/BOB are de fide, he is under no obligation to believe that any Saint at all died without the Sacrament of Baptism administered with water. There is no dogma being denied there, because any recorded life of a Saint which seems to indicate that they died without the actual Sacrament is a historical account which may or may not contain historical error. Many, probably most, of the lives of the Saints have been edited, errors removed, unverified claims omitted, etc. over the centuries

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #184 on: Yesterday at 08:41:32 AM »
Lazarus,

I have never seen a Catholic who does not believe in BOD/BOB, "Feeneyite" or otherwise, also reject anyone held to be a Saint by the Church. You might find some people who believe there hasn't been a true Pope in 1000 years, 500 years, or since Pius IX or Benedict XV, etc. who reject certain Saints, but the average Catholic who does not hold BOD does not say such a thing

The Catholic who does not hold BOD simply believes that those Saints, whose recorded life seems to indicate that they died without the actual Sacrament, actually received the Sacrament of Baptism before death. That's all. (Personally, I think Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus, 1334 seems to confirm this)

In fact, even if one was to believe that BOD/BOB are de fide, he is under no obligation to believe that any Saint at all died without the Sacrament of Baptism administered with water. There is no dogma being denied there, because any recorded life of a Saint which seems to indicate that they died without the actual Sacrament is a historical account which may or may not contain historical error. Many, probably most, of the lives of the Saints have been edited, errors removed, unverified claims omitted, etc. over the centuries
I have seen several who held the view that catechumen martyrs subject to BOB are in hell or simply do not exist. They argued that the Roman Martyrology sources are not reliable and therefore we can reject the Saints in Roman martyrology. Unless I am making a mistake in 

However, if you want examples of Saints who died without the sacrament of baptism, we have many. Abraham, Moses, Elias... They were subject to the Old Law.

Logically, people who couldn't ever be reached by any priest or apostle during their lifetime and who have absolutely no way of knowing baptism is necessary for salvation cannot be subjected to an obligation which they were not aware of nor had any means to know of.
What do you call this concept? Isn't that "Baptism of desire"?

Or are those people simply subject to the Old Law and "baptism of desire" doesn't exist?