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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 7231 times)

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #165 on: March 23, 2026, 06:01:20 AM »
:facepalm: The ordinary magisterium is not infallible.  The “ordinary and universal” magisterium is infallible.  The point being, BOD has not been a “universal” belief as most Church Fathers condemned it.  Sorry, you just don’t know history.
Yes, it is the famous law of quantum infallibility. The Magisterium is both fallible and infallible before Fr Feeney examined their words to see if those words can be twisted into preaching against BOD/BOB.

If it's against BOB/BOD it's infallible, if it's for BOB/BOD it's fallible. Who would have thought to apply Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle to the Magisterium? This is a genius idea. 




Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #166 on: March 23, 2026, 06:04:01 AM »
You bought into Stubborn's perverse reading of the Catechism of Trent? Of course the Council of Trent mentions BoD. Look at two roughly contemporaneous expressions of BoD by St. Robert Bellarmine in his catechism, the annotation of John 3:5 by the annotators of the Rheims New Testament, and compare that with the Catechism. Then consider what Florence had to say about the necessity of infant's being baptized promptly, with, finally, what Pius XII said. I'd cite all of the sources here, but I've been discussing this year for over 15 years here and I'm too lazy at the moment to reinvent this wheel:


https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-catechism-of-the-council-of-trent-does-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/msg878473/#msg878473

Finally, here's Father Jenkins on BoD, first discussing the Roman or Trent Catechism:




Come to your senses, man. Can you really read those other sources above and not see how the Catechism of Trent is consistent with St. Robert, the Rheims NT, Pius XII, Florence on BoD availing for adults with the proper disposition.

DR

No, I don't agree with the idiocies he said. Simply, I used a more roundabout and easier method of proving BOB/BOD are correct.

But, it seems he lacks any capacity for logic, so what can I do? 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #167 on: March 23, 2026, 07:55:56 AM »
Yes, it is the famous law of quantum infallibility. The Magisterium is both fallible and infallible before Fr Feeney examined their words to see if those words can be twisted into preaching against BOD/BOB.

If it's against BOB/BOD it's infallible, if it's for BOB/BOD it's fallible. Who would have thought to apply Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle to the Magisterium? This is a genius idea.


Shows your lack of education on the subject.  

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #168 on: March 23, 2026, 11:12:42 AM »
Baptism of desire only happens before the death of a person who desired baptism and who did not receive it from any other human. The angels of God baptize the person invisibly.
Where do you come up with this idea?  Your idea of "The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism" is a BOD, is error - per the catechism. In fact, per the catechism, the person "receives a BOD even though he has never heard of the existence of the sacrament of baptism." As for being baptized invisibly by an angel -- that person received the sacrament of baptism, from an angel - that's not a BOD.

Per the catechism, making an act of perfect love or perfect contrition is the *only* thing that is required. As if that's so easy even a caveman can do it. The reason that is the only thing required is because it is not possible for one who does not even know that baptism exists to desire it.       



Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #169 on: March 23, 2026, 01:08:28 PM »
Where do you come up with this idea?  Your idea of "The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism" is a BOD, is error - per the catechism. In fact, per the catechism, the person "receives a BOD even though he has never heard of the existence of the sacrament of baptism." As for being baptized invisibly by an angel -- that person received the sacrament of baptism, from an angel - that's not a BOD.

Per the catechism, making an act of perfect love or perfect contrition is the *only* thing that is required. As if that's so easy even a caveman can do it. The reason that is the only thing required is because it is not possible for one who does not even know that baptism exists to desire it.       



There are two possibilities for "BOB/BOD" to be true. What we mean by "BOD/BOB" being true, is that someone who has not been visibly baptized could still be saved :

A)BOD and BOB are theological descriptions of a particular case of baptism, that is performed invisibly by God or His angels on those who cannot get baptized by other means through no fault of their own. That is, every single member of the Church (after Revelation) has been baptized, even if it wasn't done by humans. That is a theological possibility.

B)BOD and BOB describe conditions of the soul of someone who is not baptized where their culpability is reduced or where the necessity of baptism is circuмvented by God, and God directly gives the effect of baptism without the required sacrament. The catechism you are using as a source describes this possibility, which is what St Thomas Aquinas wrote about.

An act of perfect contrition requires wanting to do God's will, even without knowing about Revelation. That is "implicit" desire for baptism, because it's impossible to know about baptism for someone who never heard of the Gospels or of the Christian religion at all.

Practically, there is almost no difference at all between the two positions, because there is no way to know about what God does invisibly unless He specifically reveals it to someone.

In fact, the more I examine this, the less I understand where the conflict lies.

What were we even getting angry about? :confused: