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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 4003 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #155 on: Today at 01:19:36 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Today at 12:48:48 PM
St Pius X wrote his catechism prior to being a Pope, then he re-read it and had it read by several theologians before publishing it again.
You cannot escape the truth, unless you truly wish to persevere in this error and ignore all of the reasonable evidence I have pointed out. In which case, you can no longer be considered a mere material heretic.

The Pope is infallible when he teaches matters of faith or morals. That is an absolute dogma. So, either of two things : you deny infallibility and you are not a Catholic, or you deny that the Catechism constitutes a statement on faith and morals. Either possibility is absurd.

So what if Trent's catechism doesn't mention BOD/BOB? That just means it is incomplete, not that it is incorrect. There is no conflict between St Pius X's catechism and Trent's Catechism that I can think of. Usually, Councils are done in order to oppose some kind of heresy that denies a major article of the faith.
If no one ever denied BOB/BOD in the past, even among protestants, then the theologians who wrote Trent's catechism probably forgot to mention the subject, because it wasn't important back then.

I urge you to make the right choice. Will you make the choice that St Thomas Aquinas, St Alphonsus Liguori, St Augustine, St Pius X all made, or will you keep preaching this theological innovation that only has roots in the USA?
Plenty of church fathers condemned BOD.  The catechism (pick any catechism in existence) is not infallible.  Period. 
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #156 on: Today at 01:22:27 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 01:19:36 PM
Plenty of church fathers condemned BOD.  The catechism (pick any catechism in existence) is not infallible.  Period.
Then you are a formal heretic, congratulations. I have no further words for you, I shall pray for your conversion. 
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #157 on: Today at 01:36:00 PM »
For those who are unaware, both the ordinary and the extraordinary magisterium are infallible. St Pius X's catechism falls under ordinary magisterium. 


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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #158 on: Today at 03:30:00 PM »
:facepalm: The ordinary magisterium is not infallible.  The “ordinary and universal” magisterium is infallible.  The point being, BOD has not been a “universal” belief as most Church Fathers condemned it.  Sorry, you just don’t know history. 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #159 on: Today at 07:56:03 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on Today at 12:48:48 PM
So what if Trent's catechism doesn't mention BOD/BOB? That just means it is incomplete, not that it is incorrect. There is no conflict between St Pius X's catechism and Trent's Catechism that I can think of. Usually, Councils are done in order to oppose some kind of heresy that denies a major article of the faith.
If no one ever denied BOB/BOD in the past, even among protestants, then the theologians who wrote Trent's catechism probably forgot to mention the subject, because it wasn't important back then.

You bought into Stubborn's perverse reading of the Catechism of Trent? Of course the Council of Trent mentions BoD. Look at two roughly contemporaneous expressions of BoD by St. Robert Bellarmine in his catechism, the annotation of John 3:5 by the annotators of the Rheims New Testament, and compare that with the Catechism. Then consider what Florence had to say about the necessity of infant's being baptized promptly, with, finally, what Pius XII said. I'd cite all of the sources here, but I've been discussing this year for over 15 years here and I'm too lazy at the moment to reinvent this wheel:


https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-catechism-of-the-council-of-trent-does-not-teach-baptism-of-desire/msg878473/#msg878473

Finally, here's Father Jenkins on BoD, first discussing the Roman or Trent Catechism:




Come to your senses, man. Can you really read those other sources above and not see how the Catechism of Trent is consistent with St. Robert, the Rheims NT, Pius XII, Florence on BoD availing for adults with the proper disposition.

DR
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