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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 4148 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #140 on: Yesterday at 05:17:51 AM »

Quote
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Morals on the Book of Job (Moralia), Book 4, #3: “For every man that is not absolved by the water of regeneration, is tied and bound by the guilt of the original bond… And that he who is not washed in the water of salvation, does not lose the punishment of original sin, the Truth plainly declares by Itself in these words: Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5].”




Quote
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Morals on the Book of Job (Moralia), Book 9, #32: “For there be some that are withdrawn from the present light, before they attain to show forth the good or evil deserts of an active life.  And whereas the Sacraments of salvation do not free them from the sin of their birth, at the same time that here they never did aright by their own act; there they are brought to torment.  And these have one wound, viz. to be born in corruption, and another, to die in the flesh.  But forasmuch as after death there also follows, death eternal, by a secret and righteous judgment ‘wounds are multiplied to them without cause.’  For they even receive everlasting torments, who never sinned by their own will.  And hence it is written, Even the infant of a single day is not pure in His sight upon earth.  Hence ‘Truth’ says by His own lips, Unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God [John 3:5].  Hence Paul says, We were by nature the children of wrath even as others. [Eph. 2, 3]  Therefore, he who adds nothing of his own is bound by the guilt of birth alone, how does such a one stand at the final judgment, from a merely human point of view, except as one 'wounded without cause'?  And yet in the strict account of God it is but just that the stock of mortality, like an unfruitful tree, should preserve in the branches that bitterness which it drew from the root.  Therefore he says, For He shall break me with a tempest, and multiply my wounds without cause.  As if reviewing the woes of mankind he said in plain words; ‘With what sort of visitation does the strict Judge mercilessly slay those, whom the guilt of their own deeds condemns, if He smites for all eternity even those, whom the guilt of deliberate choice does not impeach?’”




Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #141 on: Yesterday at 05:50:24 AM »
It seems that I misread what you wrote and that in my haste to answer I was sloppy.

I meant that I read about BOD/BOB in the Catechism. For the 3 things I mentionned that are necessary for salvation, they do not directly come from the Catechism, but as a logical consequence.

a)Having the faith.

b)Having good works.

c)Sacraments, or a desire for sacraments.
You are not accepting the fact that you contradict the catechism I posted, which taught that  the recipient:
a) does not need the faith
b) does not need any works at all
c) does not need the sacrament
d) does not need to desire the sacrament
e) does not need to even know the sacrament of baptism exists

I think it was St. Bernard who gave us the axiom that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," which perfectly and clearly defines exactly what a BOD is - a good intention, a *presumed* good intention at that.

Think about this.....

"I have said that a Baptism—of—Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death as one of "the faithful departed.” Were he to be revivified immediately after death—were he to come to life again—he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get into the Church Militant without it." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life



Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #142 on: Yesterday at 06:04:16 AM »
You are not accepting the fact that you contradict the catechism I posted, which taught that  the recipient:
a) does not need the faith
b) does not need any works at all
c) does not need the sacrament
d) does not need to desire the sacrament
e) does not need to even know the sacrament of baptism exists

I think it was St. Bernard who gave us the axiom that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," which perfectly and clearly defines exactly what a BOD is - a good intention, a *presumed* good intention at that.

Think about this.....

"I have said that a Baptism—of—Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death as one of "the faithful departed.” Were he to be revivified immediately after death—were he to come to life again—he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get into the Church Militant without it." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life

Scripture answers Fr Feeney perfectly :

Marriage at the Resurrection
23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[b]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”



Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #143 on: Yesterday at 06:11:48 AM »
You are not accepting the fact that you contradict the catechism I posted, which taught that  the recipient:
a) does not need the faith
b) does not need any works at all
c) does not need the sacrament
d) does not need to desire the sacrament
e) does not need to even know the sacrament of baptism exists

I think it was St. Bernard who gave us the axiom that "The road to hell is paved with good intentions," which perfectly and clearly defines exactly what a BOD is - a good intention, a *presumed* good intention at that.

Think about this.....

"I have said that a Baptism—of—Desire Catholic is not a member of the Church. He cannot be prayed for after death as one of "the faithful departed.” Were he to be revivified immediately after death—were he to come to life again—he would not be allowed to receive Holy Eucharist or any of the other Sacraments until he was baptized by water. Now, if he can get into the Church Triumphant without Baptism of Water, it is strange that he cannot get into the Church Militant without it." - Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
I did not contradict the teachings from the Catechism you posted. Those teachings are incomplete and, if you really want to know the whole content of Revelation, 100 000 pages wouldn't be enough, 1 000 000 pages wouldn't be enough. Why do you think theologians have to spend their whole lives studying the subject? 

Moreover, your quote is outside of the subject of what you are denouncing. St Bernard's quote denounces reasoning based on utilitarianism, such as killing one person to save ten. This has literally nothing to do with BOD.

I think you would greatly benefit from reading Aristotles.  

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #144 on: Yesterday at 07:30:47 AM »
First and foremost, the catechism wasn't meant to be used by average Catholics but by priests and bishops in order to educate. Not everyone knew how to read, so how could it be meant to be read by everyone? Those texts were subject to very meticulous scrutinity.

Secondly, if you think you are more perfect than the ordinary magisterium, that is a laughable opinion. No one but protestants think like this.
Meticulous scrutiny, yes.  Infallible, no.  Protected from infiltration on minor points, no.