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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 6811 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #125 on: March 20, 2026, 12:59:26 AM »
Where do I come up with those things?

It's from the Catechism, the very first book any serious Catholic should read. The two Catechisms traditionalists usually read are Trent's Catechism and St Pius X's catechism.

Which was recommended by St Pius X, as its name suggest, so His Holiness must have read it before approving it.
Many years ago some cathinfo members found the original docuмent in a museum and it did not mention BoD and salvation in invincible ignorance.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2026, 01:01:27 AM »
That's not what Pope Siricius said.

I addressed this when Ladislaus trotted out this argument some time ago. Those who read it the way you and Lad do are making a superficial reading because it suits their agenda, so they grab the quote without reading closely, with some deep thought and reflection, since perhaps there is simply lacking a mature sense of, "hey, all the doctors and sainst post-Trent say there is a BoD, but I read Pope Siricius saying, 'no, there isn't.' Maybe I should take a closer look at Pope Siricius's quote."

Here, maybe you can respond to my close reading of Siricius that keeps a harmony between him and St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, etc. on BoD:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-necessity-of-the-sacraments-73357/msg928573/#msg928573

As typical and done repeatedly, Lad failed to respond, and walked away.

Silence can speak volumes.

It literally immediately states 

lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”

Your interpretation makes no sense. It denies the very statement.


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #127 on: March 20, 2026, 04:24:53 AM »
Many years ago some cathinfo members found the original docuмent in a museum and it did not mention BoD and salvation in invincible ignorance.

I can give you the 1906 French edition of the "Grand catéchisme de Saint Pie X". Here is what page 202 says :


"Peut-on suppléer en quelque manière au défaut du Baptême ?" "Le défaut du sacrement de Baptême peut être suppléé par le martyre qu'on appelle le Baptême de sang, ou par un acte de parfait amour de Dieu ou de contrition, joint au désir au moins implicite du Baptême, et ceci s'appelle Baptême de désir."

Both baptism of desire and baptism of blood are explicitly taught by the first edition of St Pius X's catechism written in French in 1906. 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #128 on: March 20, 2026, 04:57:47 AM »
Where do I come up with those things?

It's from the Catechism, the very first book any serious Catholic should read. The two Catechisms traditionalists usually read are Trent's Catechism and St Pius X's catechism.

Which was recommended by St Pius X, as its name suggest, so His Holiness must have read it before approving it.
No where and nobody teaches those three things comprise a BOD, let alone that they are what is necessary for a BOD to happen. You simply invented them. Please simply admit this.

 Because neither catechism teaches a BOD and in an effort to correct your error, I am simply Reposting  what I explained to you prior and you ignored.........


You only proved the point I that I underlined. You "read meanings into words which the words you read do not say, while failing to advert to what the words do say."


Now, let's understand it for what the words actually say....

1. First off, the catechism states plainly that there is no danger of death involved, nor is the death of the catechumen mentioned at all or even implied. (But if there were a danger of death, then as the very next chapter says, the adult must be be baptized at once. This is unlike like infants who are more prone shall we say, to die at any time. However, when there actually *is* the danger of death, the very next chapter teaches that "In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once.")

2. To continue with  the first part where it says: "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Note that "grace and righteousness" are attributes of the living, not the dead. Neither Trent nor it's catechism are talking about the attainment of salvation here, which is an attribute of the dead, not the living. All of which is to say, the catechism is not implying the death or danger of death of the adult.

3. Also note that because there is no mention of death at all, it does not say "accidental death," only an "unforeseen accident," which could mean literally any unforeseen event *except death* which would impede the catechumen from receiving the sacrament as previously scheduled. An "unforeseen accident," means anything from the priest having to reschedule due to an emergency, to the catechumen's car not starting, to whatever other "unforeseen accident" you can think of, except unforeseen accidental death - because it does not say "unforeseen accidental death." Again, death is never mentioned nor implied - see the next chapter for what to do when there is danger of death.

4. Note that "their intention etc. "..."will avail", which is to say, "will help," or "will aid them," or "will put them in the way of," it is saying that "their intention etc." will "be of use" toward them attaining justification i.e. "grace and righteousness", but it does not say even that "grace and righteousness"  is guaranteed or in any way certain. It does not reward nor give them justification, nor does it mean "their intention etc." will reward them salvation.

This is the correct understanding of what the catechism is teaching. 

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #129 on: March 20, 2026, 06:00:20 AM »
No where and nobody teaches those three things comprise a BOD, let alone that they are what is necessary for a BOD to happen. You simply invented them. Please simply admit this.

 Because neither catechism teaches a BOD and in an effort to correct your error, I am simply Reposting what I explained to you prior and you ignored.........


You only proved the point I that I underlined. You "read meanings into words which the words you read do not say, while failing to advert to what the words do say."


Now, let's understand it for what the words actually say....

1. First off, the catechism states plainly that there is no danger of death involved, nor is the death of the catechumen mentioned at all or even implied. (But if there were a danger of death, then as the very next chapter says, the adult must be be baptized at once. This is unlike like infants who are more prone shall we say, to die at any time. However, when there actually *is* the danger of death, the very next chapter teaches that "In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once.")

2. To continue with  the first part where it says: "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Note that "grace and righteousness" are attributes of the living, not the dead. Neither Trent nor it's catechism are talking about the attainment of salvation here, which is an attribute of the dead, not the living. All of which is to say, the catechism is not implying the death or danger of death of the adult.

3. Also note that because there is no mention of death at all, it does not say "accidental death," only an "unforeseen accident," which could mean literally any unforeseen event *except death* which would impede the catechumen from receiving the sacrament as previously scheduled. An "unforeseen accident," means anything from the priest having to reschedule due to an emergency, to the catechumen's car not starting, to whatever other "unforeseen accident" you can think of, except unforeseen accidental death - because it does not say "unforeseen accidental death." Again, death is never mentioned nor implied - see the next chapter for what to do when there is danger of death.

4. Note that "their intention etc. "..."will avail", which is to say, "will help," or "will aid them," or "will put them in the way of," it is saying that "their intention etc." will "be of use" toward them attaining justification i.e. "grace and righteousness", but it does not say even that "grace and righteousness"  is guaranteed or in any way certain. It does not reward nor give them justification, nor does it mean "their intention etc." will reward them salvation.

This is the correct understanding of what the catechism is teaching.
I assure you, I do not have the intelligence necessary to invent concepts that come from the Revelation, no human does. The fact you think I could ever invent such concepts is flattering for my intelligence, but I am only repeating to you what I was taught from the Catechism. 

I have re-read both catechisms. I was wrong that BOB/BOD are described in the Catechism of Trent, your corrections seem to be accurate.

However, in St Pius X's Catechism in the 1906 edition, BOB/BOD are both explicitly defined.