Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism (Read 3384 times)

LeDeg · « **Reply #115 on:** **Yesterday** at 10:09:37 AM »

Does BOD remove the temporal punishment due to sin like water baptism does?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #116 on:** **Yesterday** at 11:03:03 AM »

Quote from: LeDeg on Yesterday at 10:09:37 AM

Does BOD remove the temporal punishment due to sin like water baptism does?

Nobody knows. Some saints say yes, some say no.

I know of no other “dogma” / sacrament where so many details are unknown.

Stubborn · « **Reply #117 on:** **Yesterday** at 11:05:09 AM »

Quote from: Lazarus on Yesterday at 08:07:24 AM

That is entirely false.

In order to be saved, as a Catholic, you need 3 things : faith, sacraments OR desire for them, and good works.

Not any of the three can be lacking, unless someone suffers from invincible ignorance.

As for being saved only by one's own merits, that is logically impossible. All of a human's virtues come from God, whether they are aware of it or not. Goodness itself comes from God.

Where do you come up with these three things?

How can one have the faith "or the desire for them" when they've "never even heard of the existence of the sacrament of baptism?" Nobody desires that which they do not know exists. What you say is contrary to the catechism....

DecemRationis · « **Reply #118 on:** **Yesterday** at 11:06:35 AM »

Quote from: LeDeg on Yesterday at 10:09:37 AM

Does BOD remove the temporal punishment due to sin like water baptism does?

Logically, I don't see why not. Initial justification is creation of a "new man." In the words of Trent: "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." A BoD, per Trent, can effect the translation.

After initial justification, that "translation" is not lost. We fall out of a state of grace, but don't lose the "sonship" of our translation.

I am aware that St. Alphonsus, and even St. Robert Bellarmine I think, thought that a BoD does not remit temporal punishment as the sacrament of baptism does. But the Magisterium has never spoken on that.

To me, there is a distinction between initial justification and restoration after a loss of grace via sin after initial justification. If a BoD effects the translation, and Trent says it does, I would disagree with St. Alphonsus and St. Robert. Their distinction does not make sense to me.

For example, the penalty for sin subsequent to initial justification remains and must be satisfied even when the sacrament is received. Subsequent restoration and initial justification are different in that regard.

Also, in initial justification, original sin, which separates us from God without personally sinning, is remitted. It makes more sense to me that the initial putting right with God that makes a "new creature" would therefore wipe out everything that separates us from God, both original and personal sin. Again, per Trent, BoD effects this remission.

So, since we're engaged in speculation on this, I would disagree with St. Alphonsus and anyway else who argues otherwise. As has been pointed out, the St. Alphonsus position makes no sense. So I would reject the speculation of St. Alphonsus while not rejecting the rather clear Magisterial testimony of Trent, the Roman Catechism, etc. as to the existence of BoD.

Stubborn · « **Reply #119 on:** **Yesterday** at 11:11:13 AM »

Quote from: LeDeg on Yesterday at 10:09:37 AM

Does BOD remove the temporal punishment due to sin like water baptism does?

No, Trent says justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration. Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam says: "We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins."

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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism (Read 3384 times)

LeDeg

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism

Pax Vobis

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Stubborn

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DecemRationis

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism

Stubborn

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism