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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 5337 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2026, 08:37:42 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 19, 2026, 08:07:24 AM
That is entirely false.

In order to be saved, as a Catholic, you need 3 things : faith, sacraments OR desire for them, and good works.

Not any of the three can be lacking, unless someone suffers from invincible ignorance.

As for being saved only by one's own merits, that is logically impossible. All of a human's virtues come from God, whether they are aware of it or not. Goodness itself comes from God.


Yes, it's false. Stubborn burns a straw man. To burn all BoDers, you have to put them in the same body of straw. Thus, "all BoDers . . . " Light match. Watch burn.

Did Bellarmine, St. Alphonus, the Annotators of the Original Rheims New Testament, Orestes Brownson, St. Thomas - all BoDers - believe that? If Stubborn answers, he's refuted.

But hey, that would complicate things.

Let's keep things simple. :facepalm:
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #111 on: March 19, 2026, 08:42:36 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 19, 2026, 12:18:14 AM
God is not "obligated" to do anything, however He does not contradict Himself, that we can be certain of. 
Disagree.  Since He cannot contradict Himself, nor can He deceive, then He is "obligated" (in a human way of speaking) to work within the rules that He has created.  He would not create rules which He cannot (or would not) follow.  That would mean he would contradict Himself, which he cannot, would not and is "obligated" not to.



Quote
I think instead of arguing endlessly, I should give a short list of catechumens who died as martyrs and were officially recognised by the Church.

St Genesius of Arles as an example was a roman scribe. He refused to sign an edict to persecute Christians. He was pursued and he fled in order to get baptised he swam through the Rhône. Before he could get baptised, the Roman authorities caught up with him and he was executed. He is officially recognised by the Church and honored the 25th of August. The source for his biography is Gregory of Tours.

St Rogatian of Nantes is another example. He well-known in France.

St Emerentia.

You can look those up, those are clear examples of catechumens who were recognised as martyrs officially by the Church.
It's a historical fact that catechumens were baptized during persecutions, and were still called "catechumens".  Because catechumens weren't considered full members until they went through all training and liturgical ceremonies, which occurred only twice a year - at Easter and at Pentecost.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #112 on: March 19, 2026, 08:45:41 AM »
**** Deleted****

That was crass of me.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #113 on: March 19, 2026, 09:31:06 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 19, 2026, 08:05:18 AM
WorldsAway,

Good morning. Kudos to you for engaging the issue and giving it some thought. Very nice to see. Thank you.

I agree that some might not have the proper disposition for receipt of justification via BoD, but they might have sufficient disposition for receipt of the sacrament of baptism:

Pope Siricius is saying give the sacrament to all of those who beg to receive it, no further questions asked: if they "should beg to be relieved by the unique help of faith, let them obtain the rewards of the much sought-after regeneration in the same moment of time in which they beg for it." That alone (the begging to receive it) would seem to indicate that they realize the gravity of their sin and the danger to their souls (attrition). These are the ones "desiring" baptism and for whom the actual sacrament is necessary, for they lack the love of God and perfect attrition that, with the desire for the sacrament, would justify before its receipt. Indeed, the sacrament itself would be "necessary" for those poor souls.

So you make a good point, but it harmonizes with my reading I think.

I meant to say:  "These are the ones "desiring" baptism and for whom the actual sacrament is necessary, for they lack the love of God and perfect contrition that, with the desire for the sacrament, would justify before its receipt."
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #114 on: March 19, 2026, 09:51:17 AM »
Quote
I agree that some might not have the proper disposition for receipt of justification via BoD, but they might have sufficient disposition for receipt of the sacrament of baptism:
I think you meant the opposite.  The disposition for reception of justification is much easier to attain than the disposition for reception of baptism.

The bar for receiving justification is natural contrition for sins, which all men (even pagans) can attain, since all men have the natural law written on their hearts.  All men can realize their sins and have NATURAL contrition, which God will hear and give them NATURAL justification (i.e. a state of being sin-free...but does not remove Original Sin.

The disposition for reception of baptism includes natural contrition for sins, and then also a) the knowledge/desire to enter the church and b) knowledge/desire to follow church laws for salvation.  Once baptism is received, then one has the SUPERNATURAL removal of all sins, including Original sin.  The baptized are in a state of SUPERNATURAL justification, which ONLY the sacrament can provide.
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