Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 4298 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #100 on: March 19, 2026, 05:20:58 AM »
By definition, people with BOD/BOB are considered as baptised therefore as members of the Church.

Why do you think it is called "baptism of desire"?
This is nonsense. Florence states that bƖσσdshɛd does not save you, hence it is illogical to say that the person is baptised by their blood and thus saved, it is a blatant contradiction to Florence.

There is also that dogmatic statement by Pope Siricius that states everyone even those in danger of death must receive the same baptism that infants receive, infants cannot receive baptism of desire...

The Church define baptism as having an element and a form. BoD/BoB does not have these, neither can you tell someone you've been baptised by these things.

I can tell people that I've been baptised by water and Spirit. But no one can say they've had baptism by desire or by blood.

St Gregory nαzιunsus says we do not account the desire for glory in heaven as actually having the glory of heaven, neither do we judge the desire to murder as actual murder, he says he cannot see how desire for baptism is the same as actual baptism.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #101 on: March 19, 2026, 05:49:15 AM »
1) If it took a miracle, then yes, God would provide a miracle. What you're missing is that no matter who gets baptized into the Catholic Church, whether it be you, me, the infant of good Catholic parents who scheduled it two weeks prior, the catechumen about to die or be martyred, the North Korean who desires it, or via a miracle, all are baptized into the Church via the same providence of God. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. 
1)Naturally, that is a fact. However, I don't think you would be able to say that necessarily if someone doesn't believe right now it is their fault. It could also mean that their time has not come yet. Grace is a gift from God, after all. 
St. John (1:9) tells us that God has enlightened every man who comes into this world: "enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world." 
He also said that those who don't believe in Him, sin: John 16:8 "And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 Of sin: because they believed not in me."
This must be accepted as absolute truth whether one is a cradle Catholic or an ignorant native. Why? Because God brings every one of us into this world enlightened for the same reason - to know, love and serve Him. It is toward that end He *will* provide everything we need to get to know, love and serve Him regardless of our circuмstances - provided we do our part. Most people choose, of their own free will, to not do their part, hence suffer for it eternally.  

2)The first part of your statement is naturally true. The second part of your statement does not follow. You believe in the error that BOB/BOD don't exist, so naturally you assume that if someone did not receive the sacrament naturally it must mean they weren't true sincere. This seems similar to the error of predestination as protestants envision it.
A BOD / BOB is salvation through faith alone. Accordingly, if one may baptize themself via some presumed desire, one may wonder why the recipient does not simply desire to ascend themself body and soul right into heaven.
Again, the only way a BOD works is when God's Providence is completely taken out of the formula, which is to say that with the divine providence, a BOD fails, without it, it works. With the Divine Providence, God fulfills the desire by providing the sacrament, without God's providence, the person's faith alone saves him - this idea is entirely protestant and condemned by the Church. 

3)Of course God controls all events in the universe. However, God has a certain "style" when intervening in human matters. Do you see what I am talking about?
Yes, God's "style" goes about largely unnoticed, almost always His Providence is taken as a matter of natural order, or routine, or planning, like the way He feeds even the birds.

"Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?" Mat. 6:26

"If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?" Mat. 7:11

Ever consider how many birds there are - many billions for sure, each one fed by God. That's an example of God's style. 


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #102 on: March 19, 2026, 05:54:09 AM »
This is nonsense. Florence states that bƖσσdshɛd does not save you, hence it is illogical to say that the person is baptised by their blood and thus saved, it is a blatant contradiction to Florence.

There is also that dogmatic statement by Pope Siricius that states everyone even those in danger of death must receive the same baptism that infants receive, infants cannot receive baptism of desire...

The Church define baptism as having an element and a form. BoD/BoB does not have these, neither can you tell someone you've been baptised by these things.

I can tell people that I've been baptised by water and Spirit. But no one can say they've had baptism by desire or by blood.

St Gregory nαzιunsus says we do not account the desire for glory in heaven as actually having the glory of heaven, neither do we judge the desire to murder as actual murder, he says he cannot see how desire for baptism is the same as actual baptism.
1)a)Only dead people can be said to have undergone BOD/BOB. Not living people. You are correct to say that infants cannot be subject to BOD/BOB, because Trent's council said so.b)You are truncating the teachings of Florence, as always. Martyrdom only applies to people with the correct faith. Your interpretation of what it means to be Catholic is narrow and incorrect. c)The Church is infallible when it proclaims that someone is a Saint. 1700 years of worshipping catechumens martyrs is more than enough to prove that you are wrong. Otherwise, you will have to admit that the Church can teach false teachings for 1700 years... Which means Catholicism is false. 

2)Our Lord's words can be found in Matthew 5:21-22 and He expressively said the opposite of what you claim: 

21 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

God doesn't merely judge actions He also judges intents. The intent to murder someone is enough to be guilty of murder in the eyes of God, even if no one was killed. 

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #103 on: March 19, 2026, 06:01:15 AM »
St. John (1:9) tells us that God has enlightened every man who comes into this world: "enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world."
He also said that those who don't believe in Him, sin: John 16:8 "And when he is come, he will convict the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 Of sin: because they believed not in me."
This must be accepted as absolute truth whether one is a cradle Catholic or an ignorant native. Why? Because God brings every one of us into this world enlightened for the same reason - to know, love and serve Him. It is toward that end He *will* provide everything we need to get to know, love and serve Him regardless of our circuмstances - provided we do our part. Most people choose, of their own free will, to not do their part, hence suffer for it eternally. 
A BOD / BOB is salvation through faith alone. Accordingly, if one may baptize themself via some presumed desire, one may wonder why the recipient does not simply desire to ascend themself body and soul right into heaven.
Again, the only way a BOD works is when God's Providence is completely taken out of the formula, which is to say that with the divine providence, a BOD fails, without it, it works. With the Divine Providence, God fulfills the desire by providing the sacrament, without God's providence, the person's faith alone saves him - this idea is entirely protestant and condemned by the Church. 
Yes, God's "style" goes about largely unnoticed, almost always His Providence is taken as a matter of natural order, or routine, or planning, like the way He feeds even the birds.

"Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?" Mat. 6:26

"If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?" Mat. 7:11

Ever consider how many birds there are - many billions for sure, each one fed by God. That's an example of God's style.
1)Your first paragraph can easily be proven to be false. Children are unable to understand what God is through reason and that is the reason they must be baptised ASAP. This is what Trent's council teaches. How could a toddler know that it is wrong to not believe in God?

2)How could martyrdom be "Salvation through faith alone"? Moreover, the desire for a sacramant does not constitute faith. You clearly do not understand the protestant heresy of "salvation through faith alone", otherwise, how could you argue with such sophistry?

Do you understand the difference between faith, the desire for a sacrament, and good works? All of which matter in the eyes of God in order to be saved? The heresy of "Salvation through faith alone" means that good works are useless and desires for sacraments are useless.

You clearly do not even understand the heretical doctrines of protestants and why they are heretical.


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #104 on: March 19, 2026, 06:14:08 AM »
This is nonsense. Florence states that bƖσσdshɛd does not save you, hence it is illogical to say that the person is baptised by their blood and thus saved, it is a blatant contradiction to Florence.

There is also that dogmatic statement by Pope Siricius that states everyone even those in danger of death must receive the same baptism that infants receive, infants cannot receive baptism of desire...

The Church define baptism as having an element and a form. BoD/BoB does not have these, neither can you tell someone you've been baptised by these things.

I can tell people that I've been baptised by water and Spirit. But no one can say they've had baptism by desire or by blood.

St Gregory nαzιunsus says we do not account the desire for glory in heaven as actually having the glory of heaven, neither do we judge the desire to murder as actual murder, he says he cannot see how desire for baptism is the same as actual baptism.

That's not what Pope Siricius said.

I addressed this when Ladislaus trotted out this argument some time ago. Those who read it the way you and Lad do are making a superficial reading because it suits their agenda, so they grab the quote without reading closely, with some deep thought and reflection, since perhaps there is simply lacking a mature sense of, "hey, all the doctors and sainst post-Trent say there is a BoD, but I read Pope Siricius saying, 'no, there isn't.' Maybe I should take a closer look at Pope Siricius's quote."

Here, maybe you can respond to my close reading of Siricius that keeps a harmony between him and St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, etc. on BoD:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-necessity-of-the-sacraments-73357/msg928573/#msg928573

As typical and done repeatedly, Lad failed to respond, and walked away.

Silence can speak volumes.