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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 2828 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #95 on: Yesterday at 06:57:52 AM »
For two reasons.

1)There is no situation, aside from the Sacraments, where God would "automatically" do a miracle. Your reasoning suggests that, in all the situations I mentionned, God would do a miracle to save them. Of course what you said is possible. But it is not necessary

Wouldn't it mean that the DRPK has the power to make God do miracles to save the persecuted Christians, if they persecute them harshly enough? In the same instance, it would mean that the Jews have the power to make the fake Messiah come, by making events look similar. I do not think this makes sense.

2)God is Justice itself. The rules for salvation must be fair and give everyone willing a chance. It doesn't matter that most of humanity goes to hell, the problem is : are the rules just? To me, it does not seem just that a catechumen martyr would go to hell.
That isn't a rule that God would put in place, because God is Justice and because He cannot contradict Himself.
Salvation is a mystery.  Yes, God is perfectly just.  But, salvation is also a gift which no man deserves.  And even though God is all just and all good, He is not obligated to give salvation/grace to all men, in the same way.  

As the gospel shows, God was generous to those workers who worked only 1 hour vs those that worked all day.  We can never understand God's ways, which is often your argument, being you think that human minds can (and should) be able to grasp the workings of God.  We cannot. 

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #96 on: Today at 12:01:37 AM »
Sorry but I don't know what DRPK means.

1) If it took a miracle, then yes, God would provide a miracle. What you're missing is that no matter who gets baptized into the Catholic Church, whether it be you, me, the infant of good Catholic parents who scheduled it two weeks prior, the catechumen about to die or be martyred, the North Korean who desires it, or via a miracle, all are baptized into the Church via the same providence of God. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. 
 
2) It is not God's fault, or His lack of attention, or any injustice on God's part that the majority end up in hell. He set the rules one time for all time for everyone and provides everything needed to live by His rules, and He judges all by those rules without difference or discrimination. This is the justice of God. There is no one about to die who sincerely desires the sacrament that will not receive the sacrament. How He accomplishes this is up to Him. Always was, is and will be for us all, no matter the circuмstances.

"The idea that someone died before he was able to receive Baptism, suggests that God was unable to control events, so as to give the person time to enter the Church. If time made any difference, God could and would keep any person on earth a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand years."
 
It's a typo, I meant the DPRK which is the North Korean government.

1)Naturally, that is a fact. However, I don't think you would be able to say that necessarily if someone doesn't believe right now it is their fault. It could also mean that their time has not come yet. Grace is a gift from God, after all. 

2)The first part of your statement is naturally true. The second part of your statement does not follow. You believe in the error that BOB/BOD don't exist, so naturally you assume that if someone did not receive the sacrament naturally it must mean they weren't true sincere. This seems similar to the error of predestination as protestants envision it.

3)Of course God controls all events in the universe. However, God has a certain "style" when intervening in human matters. Do you see what I am talking about?


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #97 on: Today at 12:18:14 AM »
Salvation is a mystery.  Yes, God is perfectly just.  But, salvation is also a gift which no man deserves.  And even though God is all just and all good, He is not obligated to give salvation/grace to all men, in the same way. 

As the gospel shows, God was generous to those workers who worked only 1 hour vs those that worked all day.  We can never understand God's ways, which is often your argument, being you think that human minds can (and should) be able to grasp the workings of God.  We cannot.
God is not "obligated" to do anything, however He does not contradict Himself, that we can be certain of.

I agree that we cannot be able to grasp all of God's workings, it would be entirely impossible because the human mind is finite and God's "mind" is infinite. However, God showed His intent quite clearly to us multiple times. As an example, one method used by the Catholic church to determine if a Saint is truly a Saint, is whether there are miracles that can be attributed to their intercession.

I think instead of arguing endlessly, I should give a short list of catechumens who died as martyrs and were officially recognised by the Church.

St Genesius of Arles as an example was a roman scribe. He refused to sign an edict to persecute Christians. He was pursued and he fled in order to get baptised he swam through the Rhône. Before he could get baptised, the Roman authorities caught up with him and he was executed. He is officially recognised by the Church and honored the 25th of August. The source for his biography is Gregory of Tours.

St Rogatian of Nantes is another example. He well-known in France. 

St Emerentia.

You can look those up, those are clear examples of catechumens who were recognised as martyrs officially by the Church.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #98 on: Today at 03:28:52 AM »
God is not "obligated" to do anything, however He does not contradict Himself, that we can be certain of.

I agree that we cannot be able to grasp all of God's workings, it would be entirely impossible because the human mind is finite and God's "mind" is infinite. However, God showed His intent quite clearly to us multiple times. As an example, one method used by the Catholic church to determine if a Saint is truly a Saint, is whether there are miracles that can be attributed to their intercession.

I think instead of arguing endlessly, I should give a short list of catechumens who died as martyrs and were officially recognised by the Church.

St Genesius of Arles as an example was a roman scribe. He refused to sign an edict to persecute Christians. He was pursued and he fled in order to get baptised he swam through the Rhône. Before he could get baptised, the Roman authorities caught up with him and he was executed. He is officially recognised by the Church and honored the 25th of August. The source for his biography is Gregory of Tours.

St Rogatian of Nantes is another example. He well-known in France.

St Emerentia.

You can look those up, those are clear examples of catechumens who were recognised as martyrs officially by the Church.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943.
Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Non-baptised are not members of the Church.


Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino", Council of Florence
"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Shedding your blood for Christ does not save you if you are not in the Church. Florence's decree is INFALLIBLE.

To be consistent with Catholic DOGMA we must presume all canonized saints actually received water baptism at some point.

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #99 on: Today at 03:57:06 AM »
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943.
Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Non-baptised are not members of the Church.


Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino", Council of Florence
"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Shedding your blood for Christ does not save you if you are not in the Church. Florence's decree is INFALLIBLE.

To be consistent with Catholic DOGMA we must presume all canonized saints actually received water baptism at some point.
By definition, people with BOD/BOB are considered as baptised therefore as members of the Church.

Why do you think it is called "baptism of desire"?