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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 4232 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2026, 09:53:02 AM »
St Thomas' reasoning is sound, however, do we have historical examples of such things happening?
Most of history is not recorded.  God works in mysterious ways, most of which are only known between Him and a particular soul. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2026, 10:54:46 AM »
St Thomas' reasoning is sound, however, do we have historical examples of such things happening?
This is history enough for me:


Quote
Acts 10


 1 And there was a certain man in Caesarea, named Cornelius, a centurion of that which is called the Italian band;  2 A religious man, and fearing God with all his house, giving much alms to the people, and always praying to God.  3 This man saw in a vision manifestly, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him: Cornelius.  4 And he, beholding him, being seized with fear, said: What is it, Lord? And he said to him: Thy prayers and thy alms are ascended for a memorial in the sight of God.  5 And now send men to Joppe, and call hither one Simon, who is surnamed Peter:


6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side. He will tell thee what thou must do

Acts 8


26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying: Arise, go towards the south, to the way that goeth down from Jerusalem into Gaza: this is desert  [Acts Of Apostles 8:26]  27 And rising up, he went. And behold a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore.  28 And he was returning, sitting in his chariot, and reading Isaias the prophet.  29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.  30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias

If you need more, I recall hearing of Mary of Agreda bilocating to Central America to teach the natives of the faith in some form, and also some stories of some other saints. But you can do the research on that. 

DR



Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2026, 11:12:02 AM »
St Thomas' reasoning is sound, however, do we have historical examples of such things happening?
Consider that throughout this thread, your reasoning excludes Divine Providence, why?.......

"Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it.  If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it..." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2026, 10:56:54 PM »
Consider that throughout this thread, your reasoning excludes Divine Providence, why?.......

"Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it.  If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it..." - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
For two reasons.

1)There is no situation, aside from the Sacraments, where God would "automatically" do a miracle. Your reasoning suggests that, in all the situations I mentionned, God would do a miracle to save them. Of course what you said is possible. But it is not necessary

Wouldn't it mean that the DRPK has the power to make God do miracles to save the persecuted Christians, if they persecute them harshly enough? In the same instance, it would mean that the Jews have the power to make the fake Messiah come, by making events look similar. I do not think this makes sense.

2)God is Justice itself. The rules for salvation must be fair and give everyone willing a chance. It doesn't matter that most of humanity goes to hell, the problem is : are the rules just? To me, it does not seem just that a catechumen martyr would go to hell. 
That isn't a rule that God would put in place, because God is Justice and because He cannot contradict Himself. 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #94 on: March 18, 2026, 06:48:56 AM »
For two reasons.

1)There is no situation, aside from the Sacraments, where God would "automatically" do a miracle. Your reasoning suggests that, in all the situations I mentionned, God would do a miracle to save them. Of course what you said is possible. But it is not necessary

Wouldn't it mean that the DRPK has the power to make God do miracles to save the persecuted Christians, if they persecute them harshly enough? In the same instance, it would mean that the Jews have the power to make the fake Messiah come, by making events look similar. I do not think this makes sense.

2)God is Justice itself. The rules for salvation must be fair and give everyone willing a chance. It doesn't matter that most of humanity goes to hell, the problem is : are the rules just? To me, it does not seem just that a catechumen martyr would go to hell.
That isn't a rule that God would put in place, because God is Justice and because He cannot contradict Himself. 
Sorry but I don't know what DRPK means.

1) If it took a miracle, then yes, God would provide a miracle. What you're missing is that no matter who gets baptized into the Catholic Church, whether it be you, me, the infant of good Catholic parents who scheduled it two weeks prior, the catechumen about to die or be martyred, the North Korean who desires it, or via a miracle, all are baptized into the Church via the same providence of God. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it.  
   
2) It is not God's fault, or His lack of attention, or any injustice on God's part that the majority end up in hell. He set the rules one time for all time for everyone and provides everything needed to live by His rules, and He judges all by those rules without difference or discrimination. This is the justice of God. There is no one about to die who sincerely desires the sacrament that will not receive the sacrament. How He accomplishes this is up to Him. Always was, is and will be for us all, no matter the circuмstances. 

"The idea that someone died before he was able to receive Baptism, suggests that God was unable to control events, so as to give the person time to enter the Church. If time made any difference, God could and would keep any person on earth a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand years."