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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 2370 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2026, 10:42:14 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 15, 2026, 10:13:03 PM
Are you of the opinion that catechumens, who died as martyrs, deserve to go to hell, and that God justly prevented them from undertaking baptism because He thought so? Would you dare claim that those who suffer do so because they deserve it?

I was not aware that St Gregory was a Doctor before you told me. However, between one Church Doctor and three, the matter is easily settled. That is assuming I can trust you to not have truncated St Gregory's words as well, as you and your companions have proven yourselves able to do to justify your error.

As for my fundamentals being lacking, I admit it. If only I had one hundredth of the intelligence and wisdom of a Church Doctor, I would be happy. From whence do you dare have such confidence, do you perhaps have a background as a theologian? Were you taught by a priest or a monk? Can we trust in the orthodoxy of their teachings and in the uprightness of their lives?
In the early ages of the Church it was quite common for a catechumen to be baptized, and to continue studying the faith, while retaining the title "catechumen."  You presume - and I might add falsely presume - that there are unbaptized catechumens in heaven.  The Church has never said this, and if a theologian or Church father maintains this theory, so what. This is simply your fallible opinion, just as it is their fallible opinions. 

And to answer your question, quite a few people on Cathinfo have studied under theologians, have advanced degrees, blah, blah, blah ad naseam. And if you want to be really technical about the matter there were no PhD's before the year 1088 which is the founding date of the University of Bologna, the oldest university in Europe. Although I read in the writings of Archbishop Spalding that one of the universities in Britain dates to the year 855, but I cannot recall the university.   
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2026, 11:04:16 PM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on March 15, 2026, 10:42:14 PM
In the early ages of the Church it was quite common for a catechumen to be baptized, and to continue studying the faith, while retaining the title "catechumen."  You presume - and I might add falsely presume - that there are unbaptized catechumens in heaven.  The Church has never said this, and if a theologian or Church father says the contrary, so what. This is simply your fallible opinion. 

And to answer your question, quite a few people on Cathinfo have studied under theologians, have advanced degrees, blah, blah, blah ad naseam. And if you want to be really technical about the matter there were no PhD's before the year 1088 which is the founding date of the University of Bologna, the oldest university in Europe. Although I read in the writings of Archbishop Spalding that one of the universities in Britain dates to the year 855, but I cannot recall the university.   
1)Do you have any explanation as to why the Good Thief was saved? Had he been baptized, the authors of the gospels would definitely have talked about the subject, because it would have been an excellent proof of God's Providence. Imagine, the stark contrast between the Good Thief (baptized and in a state of Grace) and the bad one, unbaptized. It would have been a great proof that, baptism truly regenerates the human soul. Yet they stay silent on the topic. Do you think it makes any logical sense? Does it make sense that, the disciples of Christ were not aware that the Good Thief was baptized by Our Lord?

2)I do not care about their degrees, nor about their PhDs. Being taught by a bunch of heretics, whom I have no doubt have infinite manners of persuading others that their heretical thoughts are correct, would be in a sense worse than being illiterate. I asked : whom did you study under, to have such confidence, and can they be trusted on the orthodoxy of both their writings and their character? 
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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2026, 11:16:51 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 15, 2026, 11:04:16 PM
1)Do you have any explanation as to why the Good Thief was saved? Had he been baptized, the authors of the gospels would definitely have talked about the subject, because it would have been an excellent proof of God's Providence. Imagine, the stark contrast between the Good Thief (baptized and in a state of Grace) and the bad one, unbaptized. It would have been a great proof that, baptism truly regenerates the human soul. Yet they stay silent on the topic. Do you think it makes any logical sense? Does it make sense that, the disciples of Christ were not aware that the Good Thief was baptized by Our Lord?

2)I do not care about their degrees, nor about their PhDs. Being taught by a bunch of heretics, whom I have no doubt have infinite manners of persuading others that their heretical thoughts are correct, would be in a sense worse than being illiterate. I asked : whom did you study under, to have such confidence, and can they be trusted on the orthodoxy of both their writings and their character?
The good thief (who was Jєωιѕн) was saved under the old law, which requirements were to be sorry for sins and to believe in the Redeemer.  The good thief confessed his sins and in Christ as the messiah on the cross.  Thus, he was saved.  He went to the limbo of the just.  

All the OT saints went to the limbo of the just to wait for the messiah, to open the gates of heaven.  Christ opened heaven when He Ascended there.  It is held by some theologians that Christ would’ve baptized the OT just in limbo, so that they could enter heaven.  Because baptism is not just a New Testament law but was prefigured by circuмcision.  Thus, these OT saints would, after seeing the messiah fulfill the OT law, then partake of the fulfillment of God's plan and receive the FULL GRACES (and heavenly reward) of baptism.  

Some of you miss the GRACE aspect of baptism.  You look at it as some kind of requirement or a step which God can ignore when He wants to.  But Baptism is a GIFT OF GRACE.  Had the OT just not been baptized, then their reward in heaven would be less, since our heavenly reward is based on our cooperation with grace.  So if God would give the OT just baptism, while in limbo, He is actually giving them the fulfillment of the law and also a gift of more heavenly rewards.
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2026, 12:02:19 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 15, 2026, 11:16:51 PM
The good thief (who was Jєωιѕн) was saved under the old law, which requirements were to be sorry for sins and to believe in the Redeemer.  The good thief confessed his sins and in Christ as the messiah on the cross.  Thus, he was saved.  He went to the limbo of the just. 

All the OT saints went to the limbo of the just to wait for the messiah, to open the gates of heaven.  Christ opened heaven when He Ascended there.  It is held by some theologians that Christ would’ve baptized the OT just in limbo, so that they could enter heaven.  Because baptism is not just a New Testament law but was prefigured by circuмcision.  Thus, these OT saints would, after seeing the messiah fulfill the OT law, then partake of the fulfillment of God's plan and receive the FULL GRACES (and heavenly reward) of baptism. 

Some of you miss the GRACE aspect of baptism.  You look at it as some kind of requirement or a step which God can ignore when He wants to.  But Baptism is a GIFT OF GRACE.  Had the OT just not been baptized, then their reward in heaven would be less, since our heavenly reward is based on our cooperation with grace.  So if God would give the OT just baptism, while in limbo, He is actually giving them the fulfillment of the law and also a gift of more heavenly rewards.
I doubt that your argument is correct, because the apostles and Christ Himself got baptized, proving that baptism is at the very least necessary for those willing and able. But, let's accept your point and pretend it were correct, and look at the logical consequences. The Old thief died under the Old Law, but once Jesus Christ died and resurrected from the dead, the New Law was enacted. 

I do not think your reasoning makes sense. According to you, exactly at the moment of Christ's death, millions of people (whom under the Old Law could get to heaven through a process similar to BOD/BOB) suddenly cannot. Considering that the Gospels took centuries -if not millenia- to be spread to all corners of the world, that means millions whom, under the Old Law had a chance at salvation, suddenly having no chance at salvation at all and being sent to hell, without any changes in their actions compared to their predecessors.

I do not think it would be logically consistent to do such a thing. Why would God do so?








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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2026, 02:38:13 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 15, 2026, 10:13:03 PM
Are you of the opinion that catechumens, who died as martyrs, deserve to go to hell, and that God justly prevented them from undertaking baptism because He thought so? Would you dare claim that those who suffer do so because they deserve it?

 Everyone who goes to hell certainly deserves it, catechumens are not members of the Church so if they die without baptism they are lost. That's God justice. In the past many people were called catechumans despite already been baptised, this is due to the Roman persecution, the early Christians understood and believed the words of our Lord that one must be born again to enter heaven, hence catechumans in the past were baptised when necessary. Do you dare say that God should not damn someone to hell? Every mortal sin is worthy for eternal damnation, no one is saved without God's grace, so it really comes down you emotionalism. God IS justice in His very essence.

I was not aware that St Gregory was a Doctor before you told me. However, between one Church Doctor and three, the matter is easily settled. That is assuming I can trust you to not have truncated St Gregory's words as well, as you and your companions have proven yourselves able to do to justify your error.

The words of Pope Siricius were to the entire church hence his statement was dogmatic. He said everyone even those in danger of death must receive the same baptism as infants lest they be lost. Infants cannot receive baptism of desire hence this means BoD is false.

As for my fundamentals being lacking, I admit it. If only I had one hundredth of the intelligence and wisdom of a Church Doctor, I would be happy. From whence do you dare have such confidence, do you perhaps have a background as a theologian? Were you taught by a priest or a monk? Can we trust in the orthodoxy of their teachings and in the uprightness of their lives?

This is boomer cope.
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