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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 607 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #15 on: Today at 08:20:59 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 05:19:31 AM
What you're defending is the honor of catechumens who were saved via their faith alone, Trent condemned this idea. I suggest that you avoid doing that from now on.

St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.
Stubborn,

See my Brownson quote to OA. Trent beat O A Brownson (1803-1876) by a couple of hundred years or so . . . means of communication must have been exxxtttrrreeemmmeeelllyyy slow back then, since he publicly advanced in print a teaching so contrary to Trent.
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Online Maria Dolorosa

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #16 on: Today at 09:30:21 AM »
I am not here to argue anything, I am only sharing some things that people here may have never seen before. 

Pope Gregory XVI, in the Bull of Canonization of St. Alphonsus Liguori declared the following:



This passage may be read here, on p. 584:  

https://archive.org/details/lifeofstalphonsu00np/page/584/mode/2up


"An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined By the Sacred Council of Trent". By St. Alphonsus Liguori, p.128-129. This is from google books.






Account of the martyrdom of St. Genesius, Victories of the Martyrs, by St. Alphonsus Liguori, p. 291-292

https://archive.org/details/VictoriesOfTheMartyrs/page/n295/mode/2up




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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #17 on: Today at 10:48:31 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on Today at 08:20:59 AM
Stubborn,

See my Brownson quote to OA. Trent beat O A Brownson (1803-1876) by a couple of hundred years or so . . . means of communication must have been exxxtttrrreeemmmeeelllyyy slow back then, since he publicly advanced in print a teaching so contrary to Trent.
As St. Thomas, the greatest of all the theologians was wrong about the Immaculate Conception, the same is to be said about all the others who taught salvation through faith alone, which is a BOD - we know they were wrong because of the teaching of Trent. 
Points to consider.......

1) It is with certainty of faith that we know that you, me, and all those who have ever been and ever will be baptized, are baptized via the Divine Providence. Almighty God *always* provides us with the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it - always.

2) As such, you must believe that if God can arrange for you and everyone else to be baptized, that it is by that very same Providence that He can and will arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to receive it and enter the Church.

3) When God made the sacrament a requirement for heaven, God bound Himself to provide the sacrament to all who desire it - even if that means a miracle - remember: what is a miracle to God? Nothing, nothing at all.

4) The only way a BOD works, is when God purposely withdraws His providence from the event. this means that with the divine providence, a BOD fails, without it, it works. 

5) The condemned doctrine says that the recipient of a BOD saves themself, this idea is known as salvation through faith alone, which again, the Church condemns.

6) There is no getting around any of this if a BOD is to actually be salvific. You have got to take God *completely* out of the formula, which is what the doctrine of a BOD does.

 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #18 on: Today at 11:18:45 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 10:48:31 AM
As St. Thomas, the greatest of all the theologians was wrong about the Immaculate Conception, the same is to be said about all the others who taught salvation through faith alone, which is a BOD - we know they were wrong because of the teaching of Trent.
Points to consider.......

1) It is with certainty of faith that we know that you, me, and all those who have ever been and ever will be baptized, are baptized via the Divine Providence. Almighty God *always* provides us with the time to do it, and the water for doing it, and the minister for doing it - always.

2) As such, you must believe that if God can arrange for you and everyone else to be baptized, that it is by that very same Providence that He can and will arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to receive it and enter the Church.

3) When God made the sacrament a requirement for heaven, God bound Himself to provide the sacrament to all who desire it - even if that means a miracle - remember: what is a miracle to God? Nothing, nothing at all.

4) The only way a BOD works, is when God purposely withdraws His providence from the event. this means that with the divine providence, a BOD fails, without it, it works. 

5) The condemned doctrine says that the recipient of a BOD saves themself, this idea is known as salvation through faith alone, which again, the Church condemns.

6) There is no getting around any of this if a BOD is to actually be salvific. You have got to take God *completely* out of the formula, which is what the doctrine of a BOD does.

 

You could come up with a million reasons for what you believe. It doesn't matter.

Question is: what is the Catholic Church's position on BoD? You say it's official position is contrary to what all of its doctors (post-Trent and the Roman Catechism) say Trent and the Roman Catechism say, and they say it publicly, prominently, in print, over and over across centuries, etc. 

And the Catholic Church says nothing about this false teaching of its doctors and saints, mind you, on this issue of what is required, at a minimum, for a man to avoid hell and be saved eternally with the Lord. 

Your position makes rather absurd any belief that the Catholic Church is an divinely established hierarchical organization established by God to promulgate and safeguard His truth of salvation to the world . . . without taking a position that it went off the rails as the beacon of truth some time way before Vatican II.

I'm not aware of you taking that position. Or do you?

 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #19 on: Today at 11:38:22 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on Today at 11:18:45 AM
You could come up with a million reasons for what you believe. It doesn't matter.

Question is: what is the Catholic Church's position on BoD? You say it's official position is contrary to what all of its doctors (post-Trent and the Roman Catechism) say Trent and the Roman Catechism say, and they say it publicly, prominently, in print, over and over across centuries, etc.

And the Catholic Church says nothing about this false teaching of its doctors and saints, mind you, on this issue of what is required, at a minimum, for a man to avoid hell and be saved eternally with the Lord.

Your position makes rather absurd any belief that the Catholic Church is an divinely established hierarchical organization established by God to promulgate and safeguard His truth of salvation to the world . . . without taking a position that it went off the rails as the beacon of truth some time way before Vatican II.

I'm not aware of you taking that position. Or do you?
Trent does condemn the idea, and God's Providence must be altogether absent from the event or it fails. 

Regardless of all the fallible saint's and father's teachings, and whether or not one believes that Trent teaches or condemns the idea, everyone should be able to agree that God's Providence must be altogether absent from the event in order for a BOD to work, as such they must also agree that with God's Providence a BOD fails -  because with it, all who desire it will actually receive the sacrament. Very simple. 
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