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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 2856 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2026, 12:10:05 PM »
Concerning baptism, at the moment Our Lord died on the cross, Scripture says, Mt. 27, 52 "And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many."  In the Retractions St. Augustine clearly says, "Formerly I said the Good Thief was not baptized, but we do not know this."  St. Augustine rethought the matter and must have thought that the Good Thief was one of those who "arose" and might have been baptized among the early Christians.  Why else would St. Augustine say that he was baptized?

And I ask the question, Why did Cornelius need baptism, as Scripture clearly says, prior to his baptism, that he was a "just man"?  I ask the promoters of BOD, does BOD put me in the state of justification or the state of salvation? 
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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2026, 02:00:29 PM »
Quote from: OABrownson1876 on March 15, 2026, 12:10:05 PM
Concerning baptism, at the moment Our Lord died on the cross, Scripture says, Mt. 27, 52 "And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, 53 And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many."  In the Retractions St. Augustine clearly says, "Formerly I said the Good Thief was not baptized, but we do not know this."  St. Augustine rethought the matter and must have thought that the Good Thief was one of those who "arose" and might have been baptized among the early Christians.  Why else would St. Augustine say that he was baptized?

And I ask the question, Why did Cornelius need baptism, as Scripture clearly says, prior to his baptism, that he was a "just man"?  I ask the promoters of BOD, does BOD put me in the state of justification or the state of salvation? 
1)Again, you are truncating St Augustine's words. In the Retractations quote you gave, St Augustine says "WE DO NOT KNOW THIS." not "We know for sure he was baptized." He retracted the definite statement that the Good Thief was not baptized, in mathematical logic it means that now the statement can be TRUE OR FALSE we don't know.

2)If you are sick and you die before a priest has the time to reach you for confession, your intent to confess would lower the culpability of your sins and reduce your chances of going to hell. We can't make the definitive statement someone would have had perfect contrition, but salvation is still possible in this case.
If you are able to get baptized, you should do so ASAP. But there are circuŠ¼stances that could stop someone from getting baptized, such as the Catholic hierarchy explicitly saying not to baptize adults BEFORE teaching them the Catechism, that is what the Trent council says. In that case, would someone who obeyed the Catholic hierarchy go to hell? If so , that means the Catholic Church can damn souls, which makes the Church fallible, which means Catholicism is a false religion.



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Offline Cera

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2026, 02:08:10 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2026, 05:12:52 AM
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  as soon as the new convert finds out what is necessary for salvation, before anything else they implore to be baptized first, in fact right now, on the spot, immediately, before another hour passes lest they die before they receive the sacrament, and because if they ever did deal with a new convert, then they would know that the convert is not at all, or suspicious, or at least not so easily convinced of a BOD should they die prior to receiving the sacrament.   
The bold part is was being referrenced. That's why I said:
That's a sweet emotional argument. But not true. 

To spell it out, the Catholic Church accepts Baptisms even when administered by heretics, which means the Baptised convert will not "implore to be baptised first, right now, on the spot, immediately, before another hour passes lest they die."

see this:
The Catechism of the Council of Trent fully accepted baptism administered by heretics and infidels, provided that those who administered the sacrament intended to do what the Catholic Church did [does]. That is, even heretics, let alone other Christians. In Part 2: Baptism, it deals with the three "gradations" of those who may administer it.
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Those who may administer baptism, in case of necessity, but without its solemn ceremonies, hold the third and last place; and in this class are included all, even the laity, men and women, to whatever sect they may belong. This power extends, in case of necessity, even to Jews, infidels, and heretics; provided, however, they intend to do what the Catholic Church does in that act of her ministry. Already established by the decrees of the ancient Fathers and Councils, these things have been again confirmed by the Council of Trent, which denounces anathema against those who presume to say, " that baptism, even when administered by heretics, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church does, is not true baptism."

As the Catechism of Trent says, that practice was "already established by the decrees of the ancient Fathers," that is, the earliest Councils of the Church.
It is an immemorial custom.



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Offline Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2026, 02:20:55 PM »
Quote from: Cera on March 15, 2026, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2026, 05:12:52 AMThe bold part is was being referrenced. That's why I said:
That's a sweet emotional argument. But not true.

To spell it out, the Catholic Church accepts Baptisms even when administered by heretics, which means the Baptised convert will not "implore to be baptised first, right now, on the spot, immediately, before another hour passes lest they die."

see this:
The Catechism of the Council of Trent fully accepted baptism administered by heretics and infidels, provided that those who administered the sacrament intended to do what the Catholic Church did [does]. That is, even heretics, let alone other Christians. In Part 2: Baptism, it deals with the three "gradations" of those who may administer it.
Quote
As the Catechism of Trent says, that practice was "already established by the decrees of the ancient Fathers," that is, the earliest Councils of the Church.
It is an immemorial custom.
I have to add one clarification which can be useful for those who were baptized by Novus Ordo "priests". What you said is correct, of course, but in the case of NO "priests" it's doubtful that the ceremony was even made correctly. 

The NO "priests" managed to botch up baptism for a lot of people. They poured the water on the hair of some people instead of their head. That makes their baptism doubtful in many instances. If such a thing happened to someone, it would be advised to do a conditional baptism. 



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Offline FarmerWife

  • Supporter
Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2026, 02:42:06 PM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 15, 2026, 02:20:55 PM
I have to add one clarification which can be useful for those who were baptized by Novus Ordo "priests". What you said is correct, of course, but in the case of NO "priests" it's doubtful that the ceremony was even made correctly.

The NO "priests" managed to botch up baptism for a lot of people. They poured the water on the hair of some people instead of their head. That makes their baptism doubtful in many instances. If such a thing happened to someone, it would be advised to do a conditional baptism.
I know someone (Sede) whose husband wanted to do a conditional baptism because they had a NO baptism and he believed it was doubtful. He went to the SSPX since it was the only traditional group that was nearby but they kept leading him on without setting up a date. 
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