Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism (Read 2184 times)

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #30 on:** March 14, 2026, 05:26:15 PM »

Quote from: Lazarus on March 14, 2026, 04:23:16 PM

You should read the book of Job, even those God loves the most can end up suffering in the worst ways imaginable. God sometimes stay silent or does not outwardly care about the suffering of the most saintly people under Him. That is because He wants them to accuмulate as many merits as possible in heaven.

God always provides, yes. And not necessarily in a way that one can see with their own eyes. Otherwise He wouldn't be God.

God said very clearly that unless you are baptised in water you cannot be saved. God said very clearly that he would not destroy the earth again by flood.

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?
[Numbers 23:19]

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #31 on:** March 14, 2026, 05:30:41 PM »

Quote from: Lazarus on March 14, 2026, 04:33:00 PM

Not to mention the 3 greatest theologians in Church history (St Augustine, St Aquinas, St Liguori) unanimously agree on BOD/BOB.

From what I can see, those believing in the BOD/BOB error do not bother studying theology. They only read a bunch of random scattered texts and truncate them in order to justify their theological errors.

Wrong. St Augustine changed his opinion after dealing with the Pelagian heretics. Saying we should never say that God would allow any of His elect to die before receiving the sacrament of the Mediator.

Many of the saints who came after only professed BoD because they were going along with the other saints who ultimately thought St Augustine taught BoD.

St Thomas was speculating how it could work in theory and St Alphonsus even mentioned a baptism of tears.

St Gregory nαzιunzus denied BoD but you guys never care for that fact.

Saints are not infallible which is why I posted those quotes from the Popes and councils, they hold more authority than opinions from Saints, but too many trads are attached to human respect for Saints and other men, ignoring councils and Popes who speak with authority and ignoring the saints who denied BoD.

Lazarus · « **Reply #32 on:** March 14, 2026, 06:08:37 PM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 14, 2026, 05:30:41 PM

Wrong. St Augustine changed his opinion after dealing with the Pelagian heretics. Saying we should never say that God would allow any of His elect to die before receiving the sacrament of the Mediator.

Many of the saints who came after only professed BoD because they were going along with the other saints who ultimately thought St Augustine taught BoD.

St Thomas was speculating how it could work in theory and St Alphonsus even mentioned a baptism of tears.

St Gregory nαzιunzus denied BoD but you guys never care for that fact.

Saints are not infallible which is why I posted those quotes from the Popes and councils, they hold more authority than opinions from Saints, but too many trads are attached to human respect for Saints and other men, ignoring councils and Popes who speak with authority and ignoring the saints who denied BoD.

1)You are twisting what St Augustine said, considering that he argued that God could confer the baptism invisibly to those who needed it. Which means exactly what you said, that God would never allow one of His elect to die before getting this sacrament, since He would surely give it to them before death. Again, you are truncating what the Saints said, out of context. I am sick, and tired, of your tendency to do so.

2)Who gave the title of Church doctor to St Aquinas/Liguori? Do you think, if those men were so prone to error, they would have been bestowed with such a title? Can you use your critical mind for at least 30 seconds? Among the thousands of theologians in the history of the Church, why would those two get the title of Doctor if they could make such a basic mistake?

3)Learn your place.

Stubborn · « **Reply #33 on:** March 15, 2026, 11:10:46 AM »

Quote from: Cera on March 14, 2026, 04:04:18 PM

That's a sweet emotional argument. But not true.

see this:
The Catechism of the Council of Trent fully accepted baptism administered by heretics and infidels, provided that those who administered the sacrament intended to do what the Catholic Church did [does]. That is, even heretics, let alone other Christians. In Part 2: Baptism, it deals with the three "gradations" of those who may administer it.As the Catechism of Trent says, that practice was "already established by the decrees of the ancient Fathers," that is, the earliest Councils of the Church.
It is an immemorial custom.

Not sure what you're arguing Cera, I never said anything about heretics baptizing, or being baptized by a layperson, or someone who is not a priest, of course those would be valid if the proper matter and form are used.

Stubborn · « **Reply #34 on:** March 15, 2026, 11:28:47 AM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 14, 2026, 05:24:34 PM

This is completely wrong. Baptism was put into force after the resurrection when Our Lord told His disciples to teach and baptise the nations. The old law was not not fulfilled until Christ died, Our Lord's own words were "it is consummated", the good thief diied before these things occurred.

You are ignorant on this, that's why you have ignored the fact that Our Lord's words in Paradise did not immediately refer to the thief going to heaven but that Oir Lord would be in limbo with them very shortly. Because being with God is Paradise. Our Lord did not open the gates of heaven until after He rose again, until after he Ascended into heaven being the first to do so.

You are missing the chronological order of events.

Yes, this is right. St. Dismas, "The Good Thief," died under the old law - as did the Holy Innocents.

Trent says "since the promulgation of the Gospel." Which is to say that it was not until sometime after the Gospel was preached throughout the whole world, the sacrament of baptism was the requirement for everyone. Exactly when that was accomplished I doubt that anyone knows for certain - I've read that some of the Fathers believe it was after the death of St. John the last Apostle, around the year 100 AD.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism (Read 2184 times)

AnthonyPadua

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism

AnthonyPadua

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Lazarus

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Stubborn

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism

Stubborn

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism