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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 6293 times)

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #170 on: March 23, 2026, 01:18:19 PM »
:facepalm: The ordinary magisterium is not infallible.  The “ordinary and universal” magisterium is infallible.  The point being, BOD has not been a “universal” belief as most Church Fathers condemned it.  Sorry, you just don’t know history.
I cannot claim to speak every european language in the world, however I have noticed that the national catechisms (pre-Vatican II of course) in respectively Italy, France, and the USA all teach the doctrine of BOB/BOD.

If anyone speaks German, Spanish or Portuguese, and could verify the official pre-Vatican II catechisms in those countries as well... It would prove that this is indeed the doctrine of the Church.

Can you explain how could the Magisterium in all those countries teach error at the same time BEFORE the Church fell?

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #171 on: March 23, 2026, 01:28:57 PM »
There are two possibilities for "BOB/BOD" to be true. What we mean by "BOD/BOB" being true, is that someone who has not been visibly baptized could still be saved :

A)BOD and BOB are theological descriptions of a particular case of baptism, that is performed invisibly by God or His angels on those who cannot get baptized by other means through no fault of their own. That is, every single member of the Church (after Revelation) has been baptized, even if it wasn't done by humans. That is a theological possibility.

B)BOD and BOB describe conditions of the soul of someone who is not baptized where their culpability is reduced or where the necessity of baptism is circuмvented by God, and God directly gives the effect of baptism without the required sacrament. The catechism you are using as a source describes this possibility, which is what St Thomas Aquinas wrote about.

An act of perfect contrition requires wanting to do God's will, even without knowing about Revelation. That is "implicit" desire for baptism, because it's impossible to know about baptism for someone who never heard of the Gospels or of the Christian religion at all.

Practically, there is almost no difference at all between the two positions, because there is no way to know about what God does invisibly unless He specifically reveals it to someone.

In fact, the more I examine this, the less I understand where the conflict lies.

What were we even getting angry about? :confused:
There is no Church teaching that you can reference that teaches this. But there are plenty of Church teachings that are contrary to all of this.


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #172 on: March 23, 2026, 01:36:42 PM »
There is no Church teaching that you can reference that teaches this. But there are plenty of Church teachings that are contrary to all of this.
Only because you selectively decide what is a part of the "Church" or not based on your subjective criteria. 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #173 on: March 23, 2026, 02:17:38 PM »
Only because you selectively decide what is a part of the "Church" or not based on your subjective criteria.
No, it's simply that you demonstrate the ever evolving idea of what a BOD even is, depending on who you talk to and what source is referenced. 

Nothing you said in your previous post is taught by the Church and cannot be finagled to agree with what the Church does teach.  

 

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #174 on: March 23, 2026, 02:19:56 PM »
There are two possibilities for "BOB/BOD" to be true. What we mean by "BOD/BOB" being true, is that someone who has not been visibly baptized could still be saved :

A)BOD and BOB are theological descriptions of a particular case of baptism, that is performed invisibly by God or His angels on those who cannot get baptized by other means through no fault of their own. That is, every single member of the Church (after Revelation) has been baptized, even if it wasn't done by humans. That is a theological possibility.

B)BOD and BOB describe conditions of the soul of someone who is not baptized where their culpability is reduced or where the necessity of baptism is circuмvented by God, and God directly gives the effect of baptism without the required sacrament. The catechism you are using as a source describes this possibility, which is what St Thomas Aquinas wrote about.

An act of perfect contrition requires wanting to do God's will, even without knowing about Revelation. That is "implicit" desire for baptism, because it's impossible to know about baptism for someone who never heard of the Gospels or of the Christian religion at all.

Practically, there is almost no difference at all between the two positions, because there is no way to know about what God does invisibly unless He specifically reveals it to someone.

In fact, the more I examine this, the less I understand where the conflict lies.

What were we even getting angry about? :confused:
“Implicit desire” is the same thing taught by the Modernist Rahner and also at V2.  It is 100% contrary to what St Thomas, St Bellarmine and St Alphonsus said, which is that BOD “could” apply but…only for FORMAL CATECHUMENS who were taking FORMAL classes to convert.  

So here you are, proving that BOD isn’t a coherent theory because you are mixing and matching ideas and details to come up with an explanation which makes sense.  Your explanation neither matches St Thomas nor St Alphonsus.  Neither did St Thomas agree with St Augustine or St Alphonsus on the topic of remission of sins.  

There is no docuмent or saint which fully and completely explains BOD.  It’s a hodgepodge of theories, and your explanation is different from the saints and also every person I’ve ever debated on the topic.