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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 6092 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #105 on: March 19, 2026, 07:05:18 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 19, 2026, 06:01:15 AM
1)Your first paragraph can easily be proven to be false. Children are unable to understand what God is through reason and that is the reason they must be baptised ASAP. This is what Trent's council teaches. How could a toddler know that it is wrong to not believe in God?
Obviously I am not talking about infants, I am talking about adults. How can you say Scripture is false?

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2)How could martyrdom be "Salvation through faith alone"? Moreover, the desire for a sacramant does not constitute faith. You clearly do not understand the protestant heresy of "salvation through faith alone", otherwise, how could you argue with such sophistry?

Do you understand the difference between faith, the desire for a sacrament, and good works? All of which matter in the eyes of God in order to be saved? The heresy of "Salvation through faith alone" means that good works are useless and desires for sacraments are useless.

You clearly do not even understand the heretical doctrines of protestants and why they are heretical.

Protestants all believe that sinners are made righteous (justified) solely by faith, which they understand as a personal trust in Christ's merits. They are saved via Christ's merits. That, in a nutshell is what prots believe is the only thing that is necessary for salvation.

Proponents of a BOD all believe that sinners are made righteous (justified) solely by desire, which they understand as a personal perfect contrition or a desire to be baptized - even if they never heard of baptism. They are saved via their own merit by their presumed desire. That, in a nutshell is the same as what prots believe is the only thing that is necessary for salvation.   
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Offline WorldsAway

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #106 on: March 19, 2026, 07:13:17 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on March 19, 2026, 06:14:08 AM
That's not what Pope Siricius said.

I addressed this when Ladislaus trotted out this argument some time ago. Those who read it the way you and Lad do are making a superficial reading because it suits their agenda, so they grab the quote without reading closely, with some deep thought and reflection, since perhaps there is simply lacking a mature sense of, "hey, all the doctors and sainst post-Trent say there is a BoD, but I read Pope Siricius saying, 'no, there isn't.' Maybe I should take a closer look at Pope Siricius's quote."

Here, maybe you can respond to my close reading of Siricius that keeps a harmony between him and St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus Liguori, etc. on BoD:

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/the-necessity-of-the-sacraments-73357/msg928573/#msg928573

As typical and done repeatedly, Lad failed to respond, and walked away.

Silence can speak volumes.
I don't know DR. I would think the distinction being made by Pope Siricius between infants in general and those adults who fall under his description is that all infants can and absolutely should be baptized in danger of death. He would not say the same for adults, in general, as not all can or should be baptized in danger of death if they lack the proper dispositions or do not desire it. 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2026, 08:05:18 AM »
Quote from: WorldsAway on March 19, 2026, 07:13:17 AM
I don't know DR. I would think the distinction being made by Pope Siricius between infants in general and those adults who fall under his description is that all infants can and absolutely should be baptized in danger of death. He would not say the same for adults, in general, as not all can or should be baptized in danger of death if they lack the proper dispositions or do not desire it.
WorldsAway,

Good morning. Kudos to you for engaging the issue and giving it some thought. Very nice to see. Thank you.

I agree that some might not have the proper disposition for receipt of justification via BoD, but they might have sufficient disposition for receipt of the sacrament of baptism:

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If perfect contrition, then, were always necessary, why did Christ institute a particular sacrament, since justification would always be imparted independently of the sacramental ceremony? If attrition is sufficient for justification in the Sacrament of Penance, then there seems no reason to deny its sufficiency when there is question of remitting sin through baptism, for the reason given above will apply equally in this place.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02065a.htm

Pope Siricius is saying give the sacrament to all of those who beg to receive it, no further questions asked: if they "should beg to be relieved by the unique help of faith, let them obtain the rewards of the much sought-after regeneration in the same moment of time in which they beg for it." That alone (the begging to receive it) would seem to indicate that they realize the gravity of their sin and the danger to their souls (attrition). These are the ones "desiring" baptism and for whom the actual sacrament is necessary, for they lack the love of God and perfect attrition that, with the desire for the sacrament, would justify before its receipt. Indeed, the sacrament itself would be "necessary" for those poor souls.

So you make a good point, but it harmonizes with my reading I think.


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Online Lazarus

Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #108 on: March 19, 2026, 08:07:24 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on March 19, 2026, 07:05:18 AM
Proponents of a BOD all believe that sinners are made righteous (justified) solely by desire, which they understand as a personal perfect contrition or a desire to be baptized - even if they never heard of baptism. They are saved via their own merit by their presumed desire. That, in a nutshell is the same as what prots believe is the only thing that is necessary for salvation.
That is entirely false.

In order to be saved, as a Catholic, you need 3 things : faith, sacraments OR desire for them, and good works.

Not any of the three can be lacking, unless someone suffers from invincible ignorance.

As for being saved only by one's own merits, that is logically impossible. All of a human's virtues come from God, whether they are aware of it or not. Goodness itself comes from God.
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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2026, 08:35:51 AM »
Quote from: Lazarus on March 19, 2026, 08:07:24 AM
In order to be saved, as a Catholic, you need 3 things : faith, sacraments OR desire for them, and good works.
Ok, you are correct, generally speaking.  But here's the problem:  BOD does not supply supernatural faith or supernatural charity.

1.  Faith - Trent explains that a person before baptism can have NATURAL faith in God/religion/sacraments.  But only AFTER the sacrament, does he receive supernatural faith.
2.  Sacrament - Trent declares infallible that only the SACRAMENT avails one to salvation.  Trent does not distinguish between the sacramental graces and the sacrament.
3.  Good works - One can only have good works, if they are in the state of grace (i.e. have the SUPERNATURAL virtues of faith, hope and charity).  One can have NATURAL good works prior to baptism, but one cannot have the SUPERNATURAL means of doing "good works" prior to baptism.

BOD cannot supply supernatural faith, hope or charity.  There are no good works for a person (supernaturally) without the sacrament.  BOD cannot save.
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