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Author Topic: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism  (Read 505 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #10 on: Today at 01:00:57 AM »
Luke 23:43:

 43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.


He died under the old law. Christ did not immediately open the gates of heaven.... Think about this.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #11 on: Today at 01:02:24 AM »
I defend the honor of catechumens who died as martyrs.
You would honour them if you believed they were actually baptised before death. God always provides for His elect.


Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #12 on: Today at 04:54:20 AM »
March 14
Feast of Sts. Acepsimas, Bishop, Joseph, Priest, and Aithilahas, Deacon

As related by Butler:

"Joseph[...]was stretched flat on the ground, and beaten with thick twigs stripped of the thorns, by ten executioners who succeeded one another, till his body seemed one continued wound. At the sight of himself in this condition the martyr said with joy, 'I return you the greatest thanks I am able, Christ, the Son of God, who have granted me this mercy, and washed me with this second baptism of my blood, to wipe away my sins'"

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #13 on: Today at 05:19:31 AM »
I defend the honor of catechumens who died as martyrs.
What you're defending is the honor of catechumens who were saved via their faith alone, Trent condemned this idea. I suggest that you avoid doing that from now on.

St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized. 

Online DecemRationis

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Re: The Desire/Intention/Wish/Will to Receive Baptism
« Reply #14 on: Today at 08:14:01 AM »
The intention to receive baptism is like the intention to get married.  It means you have no wife, as you are not married.  Likewise, you have not been baptized, you are not a member of the Church. It is beyond comprehension why it is that so many seem to struggle with this concept.

OA,

Since you're a great admirer of the genius of O A Brownson, even reflecting the admiration in your name here, let O A Brownson explain it to you:



Quote
"It is evident, both from Bellarmine and Billuart, that no one can be saved unless he belongs to the visible communion of the Church, either actually or virtually, and also that the salvation of catechumens can be asserted only because they do so belong; that is, because they are in the vestibule, for the purpose of entering, – have already entered in their will and proximate disposition. St. Thomas teaches with regard to these, in case they have faith working by love, that all they lack is the reception of the visible sacrament in re; but if they are prevented by death from receiving it in re before the Church is ready to administer it, that God supplies the defect, accepts the will for the deed, and reputes them to be baptized. If the defect is supplied, and God reputes them to be baptized, they are so in effect, have in effect received the visible sacrament, are truly members of the external communion of the Church, and therefore are saved in it, not out of it (Summa, 3, Q.68, a.2, corp. ad 2. Et ad 3.)… …Bellarmine, Billuart, Perrone, etc., in speaking of persons as belonging to the soul and not to the body, mean, it is evident, not persons who in no sense belong to the body, but simply those who, though they in effect belong to it, do not belong to it in the full and strict sense of the word, because they have not received the visible sacrament in re. All they teach is simply that persons may be saved who have not received the visible sacrament in re; but they by no means teach that persons can be saved without having received the visible sacrament at all. There is no difference between their view and ours, for we have never contended for anything more than this; only we think, that, in these times especially, when the tendency is to depreciate the external, it is more proper to speak of them simply as belonging to the soul, for the fact the most important to be insisted on is, not that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament in re, but that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proxima dispositione."



Brownson, Orestes. “The Great Question.” Brownson’s Quarterly Review. Oct. 1847. Found in: Brownson, Henry F. The Works of Orestes A. Brownson: Collected and Arranged. Vol.V. (pp.562-563). Detroit: Thorndike Nourse, Publisher, 1884.

Or did Brownson's otherwise great acuмen get blown out of his nose with an "achoo" before he wrote that?

This is probably the sixth or so time I've quoted that to you, and you've never dealt with it. Perhaps you've grown a bit since we last "talked."

DR