Author Topic: Muhammad Ali talks about God, Heaven and Hell (Read 1394 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2016, 02:24:22 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

This discussion doesn't really have anything to do with BOD. Cassius Clay was baptised and raised as a Baptist. You can't be saved without explicit faith. Set aside for now whether or not explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and in Jesus Christ (Savior/Messiah) is required. One thing that is absolutely impossible is for someone to be saved who explicitly rejects these beliefs despite having been taught that they are true. So if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) died believing what he professed for the last 50+ years of his life, he is most certainly damned. Given that we don't have any evidence that he changed his mind when he was nearing death, it is foolishness to speculate that maybe he did repent of his errors and sins. He would have had to have made an act of perfect contrition (very difficult). So while it is not impossible, it is very, very unlikely. Instead of expressing a hope for his salvation (which is very unlikely), maybe the better thing to do is to warn people not to follow his example. Among other things he was a notorious womanizer and a very conceited man. In no way is he a model for Catholics. If you want to hold up non-Catholic celebrities as being possible candidates for last-minute conversion, you would do better with Elvis Presley who was friends with Fr. Bolduc and to my knowledge never expressed anti-Catholicism. In addition he recorded some very nice hymns to Our Lady. But he was a notorious perverted womanizer so unless he repented in his last drugged out moments, he too is damned. The lives of these people should be cautionary tales for the rest of us. Fame and money are not worth going to hell for.

Ah! Very good point. Thank you.

What you say is true and I agree with the entire post 100%. I was hoping someone would make a post like that.

JezusDeKoning · « **Reply #16 on:** June 16, 2016, 06:54:47 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: JezusDeKoning
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Correct me if I am wrong. The Muslims do not believe in a material god like the sun, moon or elephant or a Buddhist god which is the innerself. They obviously do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity or in the Holy Trinity. I also believe that they do not believe in God the Father but in God the the Just (but not merciful) Judge. This would be more like a warped belief in the Holy Ghost I guess. It would be an explicit but incomplete and erroneous belief in God. Please give me clarification.

They sort of believe "Allah" is merciful, I think. A very common ejaculation in Islam is "Bismillah", which in its long form ends with "Allah the most merciful". (Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahmeen)

Thank you. I did not know that. Also are there variations of Islam? Is the Koran their book like the Bible is ours. If so that would mean there are true Islams who accept everything in the Koran and ignorant Islams who do not know what is in it and Islams that reject part of the Koran which says for instance all should convert or die?

The 3 main ones are Sunni, Shia and Ahmadi. Mostly differences in who succeeds Muhammad after he dies, although some greater ones surfaced as time went on. Ahmadis are an offshoot sect that believe someone came after Muhammad.

Yes.

Every religion has those. Usually the ignorant are the ones who say they're Muslim for cultural reasons but never actually practice - a lot of southern European Muslims are like this.

Conspiracy_Factist · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2016, 09:11:56 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

It would be refreshing to hear someone anyone speak like that on TV these days when it is supposedly only about boxing. And to go on so long about that one topic. The fact that there is a God and a Heaven and Hell. I'm sure it gave some pause to any Atheists in the audience. It took some courage for him to speak like that. Actually listening to the talk is rather interesting.

God took away the things most precious to him before he died, his intelligence, wit and athletic ability.

I don't put him in Hell. I would like to think his slow demise was a purging and a detaching from self-love of a good-willed man rather than a foretaste of Hell. Some claim we can know for sure he is in Hell. But many of traditional clergy who know more than us are are not among those who would insist with absolute certainty on such a claim about his final end. I pray that he was saved even if he has to spend an intense Purgatory until the end of time.

I do not claim it was possible for him to be saved or not but if it was possible I'm pulling for him.

My apologies for this hope in advance. Here let me burn myself in advance. :heretic: Take that you pigheaded maggot!

by writing "I don't put him in Hell." are you not simply contradicting the catholic faith?

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:

“… there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”[cii]

Pope Callixtus III, 1455: “I vow to… exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet [Islam] in the East.”

I suggest you convert to the Catholic faith at once

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #18 on:** June 20, 2016, 08:00:05 AM »

Quote from: Conspiracy_Factist

Quote from: Lover of Truth
It would be refreshing to hear someone anyone speak like that on TV these days when it is supposedly only about boxing. And to go on so long about that one topic. The fact that there is a God and a Heaven and Hell. I'm sure it gave some pause to any Atheists in the audience. It took some courage for him to speak like that. Actually listening to the talk is rather interesting.

God took away the things most precious to him before he died, his intelligence, wit and athletic ability.

I don't put him in Hell. I would like to think his slow demise was a purging and a detaching from self-love of a good-willed man rather than a foretaste of Hell. Some claim we can know for sure he is in Hell. But many of traditional clergy who know more than us are are not among those who would insist with absolute certainty on such a claim about his final end. I pray that he was saved even if he has to spend an intense Purgatory until the end of time.

I do not claim it was possible for him to be saved or not but if it was possible I'm pulling for him.

My apologies for this hope in advance. Here let me burn myself in advance. :heretic: Take that you pigheaded maggot!

by writing "I don't put him in Hell." are you not simply contradicting the catholic faith?

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:

“… there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”[cii]

Pope Callixtus III, 1455: “I vow to… exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet [Islam] in the East.”

I suggest you convert to the Catholic faith at once

Not anymore than Aquinas, Pius IX, Pius XII who read and understood Pope Eugene and Pope Callixtus (yes, obviously that does not include Aquinas because he died, I'm sure this would be pointed out to me had I not mentioned here that I know this) would but seeing he was Baptist and rejecting Jesus I don't see how it could be possible for him to be saved.

Certainly I agree that not "very many" will be converted. I'm quite sure the traditional clergy would agree that one who died Muslim after rejecting Jesus could not be saved. I'm not sure what the problem with that is. Unless you did not read the part of the thread where I whole-heatedly agreed that I do not see how he could be saved.

But again the only infallible commission is one that declares Saints, not one who declares individuals to be certainly damned. So again, I do not put anyone in Hell, including Luther, Calvin or Paul 6, though I am quite certain they are all there and their suffering increases with each soul that goes there because of them.