I agree wholeheartedly, I can be on board with a EENS discussion but the FE issue was really starting to get boring especially when it was the only thing people were talking about for days. I was thinking when I was reading it, WHO CARES! God gave us this earth to live on and to save our souls, we shouldn't care and argue about its shape, it doesn't benefit us in any way.If I was a peasant in the middle ages I wouldn't even be able to read a Bible or understand the Mass but I would be able to tell someone their sect wouldn't save them. It immediately has a profound effect on how someone views others and themselves and is THE reason for proselytizing. Now we can immediately read the Bible, a Missal or whatever but close to no one sees the immediate command to convert others. This is going to be controversial but the average person being able to read and write is a detriment, if this was the 1300s and I didn't know anything beyond working my field, praying Rosary at Mass, receiving the Eucharist once a year and having an enormous family I'd probably be temporally and spiritually better off than I am now.
EENS does affect us, it relates to doctrine and the teaching of the church, souls are at stake here. Elevate the conversation topic.
If I was a peasant in the middle ages I wouldn't even be able to read a Bible or understand the Mass but I would be able to tell someone their sect wouldn't save them. It immediately has a profound effect on how someone views others and themselves and is THE reason for proselytizing. Now we can immediately read the Bible, a Missal or whatever but close to no one sees the immediate command to convert others. This is going to be controversial but the average person being able to read and write is a detriment, if this was the 1300s and I didn't know anything beyond working my field, praying Rosary at Mass, receiving the Eucharist once a year and having an enormous family I'd probably be temporally and spiritually better off than I am now.No, you wouldn't have. God placed us here in the 21st century because he knew we would have the best chance at saving our souls here and now. A friend told me this when I said the exact same thing and I was struck but its true. If God knew we would save our souls during the middle ages he would have put us there but he didn't.
Timely, on the heels of FE being freed from the ghettoWho is freeing Feeneyism from The Feeneyism Ghetto? I hope not :facepalm:
Who is freeing Feeneyism from The Feeneyism Ghetto? I hope not :facepalm:
You think FE stands for FEENEYISM?Yes, I thought FE stood for Feeneyism. Thank you for the clarifications. Much appreciated.
No, FE stands for Flat Earth. It also stands for Fisheaters (the super-liberal Catholic forum)
No, you wouldn't have. God placed us here in the 21st century because he knew we would have the best chance at saving our souls here and now. A friend told me this when I said the exact same thing and I was struck but its true. If God knew we would save our souls during the middle ages he would have put us there but he didn't.You're probably right, after all, the Internet proselytized me. Things are always more hopeful than they seem!
I agree wholeheartedly, I can be on board with a EENS discussion but the FE issue was really starting to get boring especially when it was the only thing people were talking about for days. I was thinking when I was reading it, WHO CARES! God gave us this earth to live on and to save our souls, we shouldn't care and argue about its shape, it doesn't benefit us in any way.
EENS does affect us, it relates to doctrine and the teaching of the church, souls are at stake here. Elevate the conversation topic.
While I agree that there are more important issues for those of us who have the faith, I disagree that this does not matter.This is precisely what I thought about FE before actually delving into it and discovering that it is true; it serves well as a means to show that modern science is nothing but a total deception, and we have all fallen for it.
Millions upon millions (perhaps billions) of people have lost the faith due to "modern science". Exposing FE would blow the lid off the entire deceit. Just imagine if people realized how badly they've been lied to by the scientific-government establishment. That would unmask them for who they are and what their agenda is. Also, in an FE model it's much more difficult to believe that such a world evolved randomly rather than being the product of an Intelligent Designer.
So maybe it doesn't matter so much to us, but it does matter ... to the millions who have lost the faith on account of modern science.
While I agree that there are more important issues for those of us who have the faith, I disagree that this does not matter.Flat Earth doesn't have to be true to blow the lid off this though, all you have to do is prove we haven't been to the Moon or Mars and everything else falls apart. It's an absurd house of cards. Most people just aren't willing to make the jump to FE but the circuмstances surrounding the Moon and Mars are just too sketchy and there is a sort of popular consensus, especially surrounding the Moon, that the walk was fake. With this sort of thing I think it's essential to go for the lowest hanging fruit and let them work themselves up the vine. Family, friends and coworkers IRL hold these positions on Mars and the Moon because it's that easy to convince people, the amount of evidence is gargantuan. It's not like you just bring this up but people are curious. I recall the last job I had, I listened in on a group of 5 guys at the warehouse were talking casually and all thought that 9/11 was a fαℓѕє fℓαg, and these people were normal and not onto the JQ or anything like that, it just all seemed logical to them. The second people have a chance to escape their programming they will, which is why there is such an oppressive electronic control grid suppressing the truth in all subjects.
Millions upon millions (perhaps billions) of people have lost the faith due to "modern science". Exposing FE would blow the lid off the entire deceit. Just imagine if people realized how badly they've been lied to by the scientific-government establishment. That would unmask them for who they are and what their agenda is. Also, in an FE model it's much more difficult to believe that such a world evolved randomly rather than being the product of an Intelligent Designer.
So maybe it doesn't matter so much to us, but it does matter ... to the millions who have lost the faith on account of modern science.
Timely, on the heels of FE being freed from the ghetto and the person with the loosest view on EENS being banned I think it's time to talk about the biggest deception that will cost more souls than any other: Ecclesiology of V2. FE can be discussed in the open but just think: how many souls are endangered by clown ecclesiology vs how many souls are endangered by thinking the Earth is flat or round (I know what some people will argue here but FE/RE is downstream of something else while EENS is the source and entire ecclesiology flows from understanding of it)
This issue, unlike FE, IMMEDIATELY has consequences for everyone's salvation. It's crazy how so many people come out of the woodwork to talk about FE but are completely bluepilled on EENS. Unlike FE, ecclesiology has ex cathedra statements that lay down the foundation but people say this needs to "be interpreted correctly". I think it's interesting, a topic that has no bearing on salvation is so heated but one that is absolutely essential rots in a "ghetto" and hasn't had posts in weeks. Food for thought.
2 Cor. 2:14-17
Now thanks be to God, who always maketh us to triumph in Christ Jesus, and manifesteth the odour of his knowledge by us in every place. [15] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=2&l=15-#x) For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved, and in them that perish. [16] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=2&l=16-#x) To the one indeed the odour of death unto death: but to the others the odour of life unto life. And for these things who is so sufficient? [17] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=54&ch=2&l=17-#x) For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God; but with sincerity, but as from God, before God, in Christ we speak.
[16] "The odour of death": The preaching of the apostle, which by its fragrant odour, brought many to life, was to others, through their own fault, the occasion of death; by their wilfully opposing and resisting that divine call.
http://www.drbo.org/chapter/54002.htm
Timely, on the heels of FE being freed from the ghetto and the person with the loosest view on EENS being banned I think it's time to talk about the biggest deception that will cost more souls than any other: Ecclesiology of V2. FE can be discussed in the open but just think: how many souls are endangered by clown ecclesiology vs how many souls are endangered by thinking the Earth is flat or round (I know what some people will argue here but FE/RE is downstream of something else while EENS is the source and entire ecclesiology flows from understanding of it)
This issue, unlike FE, IMMEDIATELY has consequences for everyone's salvation. It's crazy how so many people come out of the woodwork to talk about FE but are completely bluepilled on EENS. Unlike FE, ecclesiology has ex cathedra statements that lay down the foundation but people say this needs to "be interpreted correctly". I think it's interesting, a topic that has no bearing on salvation is so heated but one that is absolutely essential rots in a "ghetto" and hasn't had posts in weeks. Food for thought.
Orestes Brownson 1874:
"There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize or latitudinize this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation... If we wish to convert Protestants and infidels we must preach in all its rigor the naked dogma. Give them the smallest peg or what appears so, not to you, but to them;--- the smallest peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Penance, and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the Church in order to be saved will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck's back."
Flat Earth doesn't have to be true to blow the lid off this though, all you have to do is prove we haven't been to the Moon or Mars and everything else falls apart.
I'm not so sure. Those things don't shock people the same way an FE would. Those things discredit the space agencies as liar, but FE discredits the ENTIRE scientific establishment. That's probably why some people are so hostile to the idea.
FE is a lame try to discredit the Church, Saints, Doctors, and Popes.Flat earth is beautiful, simple, provable, reasonable, scripturally based, non contradictory and counter-pagan. Discredit belongs to the globe. Catholics are not ashamed of Truth even when inconvenient.
U.S. Treasury agents who specialize in forgery detection, when they are being trained, are never shown any forgeries, they are strictly immersed in learning every minute detail of the real thing. That way, they can spot the forgery instantly. There are millions of forgeries, but only one real note.In the same sense, Catholics need to focus on learning the one true faith in every detail and to avoid falling into studying the millions of errors out there.
Flat earth is beautiful, simple, provable, reasonable, scripturally based, non contradictory and counter-pagan. Discredit belongs to the globe. Catholics are not ashamed of Truth even when inconvenient.
FE is a lame stubborn attitude, worse than heliocentrism 500 years ago. Heliocentrists tried to make a fool of the Church, and lead many to doubt the Church. It was overcome when scientists admitted to have no proof.
FE is starting the drama all over. This time attacking less educated people.
Uhm, no.
Your baseless and ignorant view of the matter has been duly noted.
This thread isn't about the merits or demerits of FE, but about whether it's important what the shape of the earth is.
You started this "subtopic", I didn't, Mr. "baseful" and "less ignorant" know it all better!
Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
Orestes Brownson 1874:Incredible quote LT, it's a black and white issue and nobody wants to see it this way.
"There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize or latitudinize this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation... If we wish to convert Protestants and infidels we must preach in all its rigor the naked dogma. Give them the smallest peg or what appears so, not to you, but to them;--- the smallest peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Penance, and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the Church in order to be saved will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck's back."
OP started the conversation by stating that EENS is more important than FE. That's the very subject of his post.
IMO nobody can deny that antipope Paul VI exercised his full teaching ability after reading these words:
I have never heard a good defense of this wording from ANYONE.
Doesn't sound like his intentions were purely "pastoral," does it?Yes, that's the biggest RnR cope ever. Xavier is more consistent and intellectually honest than any hardcore RnR (except for some in the Resistance which isn't actually RnR but thinks it is).
What can anyone say? If the divinely-established authority can be so thoroughly ab/used to spread error and incomprehensible destruction, what good is it?Papa Paul is their man, I understand trads weren't on usenet in the 80s/90s as much as people are online now and can disseminate this information... Now there is no excuse, you can go over to vatican.va and look at the docuмents.
Let's talk about the most important implications of the 2nd "Vatican Council" and some interesting wording at the end. IMO nobody can deny that antipope Paul VI exercised his full teaching ability after reading these words:But there is a way around this because he is not binding anyone to anything in your quote.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html at the end of the docuмent states...QuoteEach and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
Many other VII docuмents are similarly stated. He is trying to promulgate fake doctrine ex cathedra here, I don't think there is a way around this.
In the quote, he is not using his infallibility to bind anyone, instead, he is only using his authority to promulgate decrees.
What a relief! I'm sure everyone rotting in Hell as a result of V2 will be so happy to discover it was all just a big mistake!The pope's infallibility was infallibly defined at the First Vatican Council - it was there that the pope defined as a divinely revealed dogma that the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals ex cathedra, he also quite clearly defined that the pope was not infallible when he promulgates new doctrines - which is what was promulgated at V2, so where does the idea come from that the pope used his infallibility at V2 at all?
If the apostolic authority granted to and exercised by the Supreme Pontiff, in union with the Fathers, can "approve, decree and establish" that which is erroneous, contrary to faith and morals, to souls, etc., WHAT GOOD IS IT???!?!?!
If Papal Infallibility ONLY means the Supreme Pontiff cannot say -- in a docuмent whose supposedly-binding nature cannot possibly be mistaken -- the Holy Trinity is really just TWO Persons, for example, that ain't much of a promise and protection.
What a relief! I'm sure everyone rotting in Hell as a result of V2 will be so happy to discover it was all just a big mistake!Again, I've never heard a satisfactory response to this and we're not going to.
If the apostolic authority granted to and exercised by the Supreme Pontiff, in union with the Fathers, can "approve, decree and establish" that which is erroneous, contrary to faith and morals, to souls, etc., WHAT GOOD IS IT???!?!?!
If Papal Infallibility ONLY means the Supreme Pontiff cannot say -- in a docuмent whose supposedly-binding nature cannot possibly be mistaken -- the Holy Trinity is really just TWO Persons, for example, that ain't much of a promise and protection.
Again, I've never heard a satisfactory response to this and we're not going to.This is true. As long as you equate papal infallibility with papal authority, you will never hear a satisfactory response.
What a relief! I'm sure everyone rotting in Hell as a result of V2 will be so happy to discover it was all just a big mistake!
As I said above, most simple Catholics who went along with Vatican II were simply following their hierarchy as had been the practice since Jesus founded Catholicism. They were not informed theologians able to sort out the endless theological aspects of the faith and even if they could they dared not ignore what they were obliged to do as Catholics; follow their popes and hierarchy.
Now we all know God will be our judge. He knows the majority of the flock were lured into errors because they followed their pope and hierarchy. Their errors then were material, not formal, and no God would send them to hell for obeying a pope of the Catholic Church unaware of what was really going on. If we went along with this, then we could say God told us to obey the man He said was to represent Him in His Church. In other words God was to blame. Yes, the knowledgeable Modernists could well be guilty of formal heresy and end up in Hell. God will be the judge of that.
To have lived as a Catholic from 1948, it took me many years after Vatican II to realise what went on. It was only when we rediscovered the Mass of Trent again that we got the grace to see that Vatican II introduced a Modernist Catholicism into the world. With Pope Francis now openly showing their new religion, many more are seeing that the Catholicism established up to Vatican I had been put aside to the cellars and Mass-rocks and that a new one had been put in place. Such a thing, we 1948s believed could not happen, but it did. A real question that should be debated is how did the Holy Ghost allow this to happen? Didn't He say it never could?
[8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=8-#x) And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,
[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=9-#x) Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=10-#x) And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=11-#x) That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.
It was prophesied that this would happen. Start reading Mt 24, Dan 12, 2 Thess 2, Is 22, Rev 1-22 etc.Good Scripture, thanks for posting it Marion.
Quote from: 2 Thess 2Quote[8] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=8-#x) And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,
[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=9-#x) Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
[10] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=10-#x) And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
[11] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drl&bk=60&ch=2&l=11-#x) That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.
I can give you more information on Knock if any want it.
But getting back to the only direct prophesy that Rome would become the seat of the antichrist, when I first heard that I was shocked and thought it must mean something else, not the Church of Rome. But I have lived to see it was the hierarchy of Rome that Our Lady of La Salette spoke of. Nevertheless, you don't hear much of that prophesy among Catholics today, not like Fatima that has taken over all apparitions.
Yes Marion, there are many prophesies in Scripture that predict man will fall under the temptations of the Devil. But there are none that say directly that the Church itself could be hijacked by a corrupt hierarchy.
Scripture is replete with statements that "the Church itself could be hijacked by a corrupt hierarchy." All of the major prophets (Isaiah, Jeremias, Ezechias, Daniel), the minor prophets, Jesus's Olivet discourse, 2 Thessalonians 2, the Apocalypse all deal with this reality. In fact the apostasy "in the Holy Place" is the primary subject of all of them, and explicitly so in Daniel 9 and the Olivet Discourse, where the "abomination of desolation" that occurs in the "Holy Place" is discussed.
But let's look at some Papal warnings in this matter:
Pope Paul IV's cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio here:
http://www.dailycatholic.org/cuмexapo.htm [note: you will need to fix the preceding link, because CathInfo uses a regular expression that breaks the URL at the "m" in "cuмexapo.htm." Just replace the strange CI "m" with a regular "m" from your keyboard by typing the URL manually into your browser address bar.]
And Pope Leo XII's St. Michael Prayer, which by the way is included, in original format, on page 1795 of the Angelus Missal. Here is an article (http://stpaulcc.org/history-of-the-prayer-to-st-michael-the-archangel/) about its interesting history and the fundamental change that took place in 1934 (see bolded section below):
History of the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel
(http://stpaulcc.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/St-Michael.jpg)Exactly thirty-three years prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, i.e., on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there as if in a trance, his face pale white, for about 10 minutes before retiring to his office. Shortly thereafter he composed the prayer to St. Michael, with instructions for it to be said after all Low Masses everywhere. When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard two voices – one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the guttural voice of Satan tell God that he could destroy the Church if he had 75 – 100 years and greater power and influence “over those who would give themselves over to my service.” God granted this to him, just as He did many millennia ago, granting Satan power over Job.
Fifty years later, in 1934, an important paragraph was curiously removed; around this same time is when the more common abbreviated form began to be used in its stead. Twenty-five years later (75 since the vision), on January 25, 1959, that John XXIII publicly summoned the Second Vatican Council. October 13, 1962 (exactly 78 years later) marked the first working session of the Council. One of the first changes to come from Vatican II, was the deletion of the Leonine Prayers, which included the prayer to St. Michael, in 1964.
The original, complete Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel:
“O Glorious Archangel St. Michael, Prince of the heavenly host, be our defense in the terrible warfare which we carry on against principalities and Powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, spirits of evil. Come to the aid of man, whom God created immortal, made in his own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in Heaven.
That cruel, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan, who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels. Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of his Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of every vice and iniquity.
(The following section in brackets was removed in 1934)
[These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.]
Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate thee as their protector and Patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious power of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly conciliate the mercies of the Lord; and beating down the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen. (Ps. 67)
Behold the Cross of the Lord; be scattered ye hostile powers. / The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered, the root of David.
Let thy mercies be upon us, O Lord. / As we have hoped in thee.
O Lord, hear my prayer. / And let my cry come unto thee.
Let us pray. O God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we call upon thy holy name, and as suppliants we implore thy clemency, that by the intercession of Mary, ever Virgin immaculate and our Mother, and of the glorious Archangel St. Michael, thou wouldst deign to help us against Satan and all other unclean spirits, who wander about the world for the injury of the human race and the ruin of souls. Amen.” ~ Pope Leo XIII
1. In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith. Remembering also that, where danger is greater, it must more fully and more diligently be counteracted, We have been concerned lest false prophets or others, even if they have only secular jurisdiction, should wretchedly ensnare the souls of the simple, and drag with them into perdition, destruction and damnation countless peoples committed to their care and rule, either in spiritual or in temporal matters; and We have been concerned also lest it may befall Us to see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by the prophet Daniel, in the holy place. In view of this, Our desire has been to fulfil our Pastoral duty, insofar as, with the help of God, We are able, so as to arrest the foxes who are occupying themselves in the destruction of the vineyard of the Lord and to keep the wolves from the sheepfolds, lest We seem to be dumb watchdogs that cannot bark and lest We perish with the wicked husbandman and be compared with the hireling.
5. When all this is considered there is good reason to fear lest this great perversity may be as it were a foretaste, and perhaps the beginning of those evils which are reserved for the last days; and that there may be already in the world the “Son of Perdition” of whom the Apostle speaks (II. Thess. ii., 3). Such, in truth, is the audacity and the wrath employed everywhere in persecuting religion, in combating the dogmas of the faith, in brazen effort to uproot and destroy all relations between man and the Divinity! While, on the other hand, and this according to the same apostle is the distinguishing mark of Antichrist, man has with infinite temerity put himself in the place of God, raising himself above all that is called God; in such wise that although he cannot utterly extinguish in himself all knowledge of God, he has contemned God’s majesty and, as it were, made of the universe a temple wherein he himself is to be adored. “He sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God” (II. Thess. ii., 2).
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10supre.htm
Scripture is replete with statements that "the Church itself could be hijacked by a corrupt hierarchy." All of the major prophets (Isaiah, Jeremias, Ezechias, Daniel), the minor prophets, Jesus's Olivet discourse, 2 Thessalonians 2, the Apocalypse all deal with this reality. In fact the apostasy "in the Holy Place" is the primary subject of all of them, and explicitly so in Daniel 9 and the Olivet Discourse, where the "abomination of desolation" that occurs in the "Holy Place" is discussed.
Fair enough Angelus, but how many of the flock throughout time were actually aware that the Bible warns us that the hierarchy of their Catholic Church could lead them astray and cause them to end up in hell? Was there ever a time in Catholicism when the flock were aware that they had to consider if their pope was giving them true Catholic orders or if he was luring them into error. I certainly didn't, and I was one of millions not familiar with the warnings you posted by popes. Popes warning about these errors, and actually recognising such errors are two different things. The vast majority of the flock has no reason to reject Vatican II for what it really was. It was not until they introduced the NO and Archbishop Lefebvre spoke out did many reralise what was happening. Since then, many thinking members of the flock, such as myself and others that I know, realised what went on and is still going on with Pope Francis. Others, mostly elderly faiothful Catholics do not and think their NO Mass and hierarchy is as Catholic as it ever was as they face their deaths and eternal destination. The Catholic rule that one must be obedient to the pope of the Church was what they followed to the letter. They did not believe they were to personally examine orders from a pope to decide to follow it or not. Surely God will not punish them for doing what they believed was Catholic.
St. Paul addresses your last point in 2 Thessalonians 2. Those who love sinning more than the Truth will be sent "an operation of error to believe a lie." In other words, God will examine the hearts of all people and allow Satan to work a deception on those who set themselves up at their own moral authority. Those in a state of grace will be guided in the right direction by the Holy Spirit. In practical terms, for Catholics, this would mean that those utilizing the Sacraments, especially Sacrament of Penance properly and regularly, should have nothing to worry about with regard to "the deception."
Are they eucharistic ministers or do they have positions of authority, or notoriety in the congregation? Did they have an annulment of a marriage? What about children, do they have any?
I have so many NO friends who go to daily Mass, monthly confession or more, don't use contraception, say the rosary daily, etc. yet they are falling for the present deception both in the Church and in the world.
I have so many NO friends who go to daily Mass, monthly confession or more, don't use contraception, say the rosary daily, etc. yet they are falling for the present deception both in the Church and in the world. They don't like Francis and they are waiting for the Church to be renewed.
It baffles me how God can allow it, yet I know of course His will is perfect.
I have so many NO friends who go to daily Mass, monthly confession or more, don't use contraception, say the rosary daily, etc. yet they are falling for the present deception both in the Church and in the world. They don't like Francis and they are waiting for the Church to be renewed.
It baffles me how God can allow it, yet I know of course His will is perfect.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us: but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.
St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book IIChapter 21 - Instances of the Unsearchable Judgments of God.
Therefore, of two infants, equally bound by original sin, why the one is taken and the other left; and of two wicked men of already mature years, why this one should be so called as to follow Him that calleth, while that one is either not called at all, or is not called in such a manner,—the judgments of God are unsearchable. But of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. Yet to believers it ought to be a most certain fact that the former is of the predestinated, the latter is not. “For if they had been of us,” says one of the predestinated, who had drunk this secret from the breast of the Lord, “certainly they would have continued with us.”( 1 John ii. 19 . ) What, I ask, is the meaning of, “They were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us”? Were not both created by God—both born of Adam—both made from the earth, and given from Him who said, “I have created all breath,”( Isa. lvii. 16 [see LXX.] ) souls of one and the same nature? Lastly, had not both been called, and followed Him that called them? and had not both become, from wicked men, justified men, and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? But if he were to hear this who beyond all doubt knew what he was saying, he might answer and say: These things are true. In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view; the divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them, because they had not been “called according to the purpose;” they had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in Him; they had not been predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. For if they had been this, they would have been of them, and without doubt they would have continued with them.
Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9456-9457). Kindle Edition.