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Author Topic: Is Francis still pope?  (Read 13180 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Is Francis still pope?
« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2024, 04:55:34 AM »
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  • It depends what kind of early we are talking, St Paul was Galatians 1:8 so he wasn't our Lord or one of those who were with Jesus during His earthly life like St John etc and when it comes to the Diocletian persecutions they didn't, then the various councils where much was ironed out and declared like the Nicene Creed, Theotokos etc

    It was widely understood by majority of Christians and already believed, but various heresies arose and issues needed to be settled. That's where St Peter comes into it as the successor to the New Aaron of the New Covenant, where the gates of hell will not prevail, the rock upon which Christ builds the Church and he has the keys to bind and loose all in the one passage too Matthew 16:18-19

    God Bless
    I must say that this is most ridiculous.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #121 on: August 21, 2024, 05:29:59 AM »
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  • I must say that this is most ridiculous.

    What part do you find most ridiculous? I can expand on it then.

    God Bless


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #122 on: August 21, 2024, 06:21:35 AM »
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  • What part do you find most ridiculous? I can expand on it then.

    God Bless
    Your idea of "new" as regards new ideas vs what the Church has always taught and what the faithful have always believed is ridiculous. There has been nothing new, no new doctrines, beliefs, ideas or whatever since the death of the last Apostle. Each an every doctrine of the Church, all of our Catholic beliefs (excepting those continued from the Old Testament) began with Christ and the Apostles and can be traced back to then. If they can't be traced back to then through the Church, then they are new doctrines. New doctrines are not Catholic, new doctrines are either error or heresy. 

    Your attempt at redefining "what kind of early we are talking about" is ridiculous. You can read a snip from St. Vincent here. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #123 on: August 21, 2024, 08:12:19 AM »
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  • Your idea of "new" as regards new ideas vs what the Church has always taught and what the faithful have always believed is ridiculous. There has been nothing new, no new doctrines, beliefs, ideas or whatever since the death of the last Apostle. Each an every doctrine of the Church, all of our Catholic beliefs (excepting those continued from the Old Testament) began with Christ and the Apostles and can be traced back to then. If they can't be traced back to then through the Church, then they are new doctrines. New doctrines are not Catholic, new doctrines are either error or heresy. 

    Your attempt at redefining "what kind of early we are talking about" is ridiculous. You can read a snip from St. Vincent here.

    Well said. It seems that if the Church had always taught and the faithful had always believed that any Pope who uttered anything that sounded like serious heresy would immediately lose the papacy, then the sedevacantists here wouldn't have to work so hard to try to convince us that this is something the Church has always taught. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #124 on: August 21, 2024, 09:38:28 AM »
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  • Furthermore, I forgot to add too, remember that Aaron was the Vicar of Moses before Pharaoh.

    Exodus 7:1-2 (And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak to him all that I command thee; and he shall speak to Pharao, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land.)

    Now the gates of hell not prevailing are in direction relation to St Peter the Vicar of Christ and St Peter is in direct relation to Aaron the Vicar of Moses, who will speak on Moses' behalf (Moses and Christ, Aaron and St Peter) it also shows us that they are capable of erring as Aaron and St Peter did. We can also see that in the Old Covenant and line of succession of High Priest they also made a mess of it too with usurpers and some questionable figures, but the setup is the same.

    Therefore, the question is only whether Bergoglio was legitimately elected or not and the answer is most certainly no for many reasons I have outlined above and we already had a Pope... Pope Benedict XVI, who was either the Vicar of Christ or he was not and nobody can depose him regardless of what we think of him.

    Therefore I don't really care what Bergoglio says and does anymore, he could turn around tomorrow and be the most orthodox guy and do everything I ever dreamed or wanted and it would all be completely irrelevant as it doesn't change anything IMO. The heresies and bad teaching and example simply prompted me to look into it as something had to be wrong.

    "Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us." 

    God Bless

    Josh, may I suggest that Moses is a figure of the Vicar of Christ, not of God Himself, i.e., Jesus Christ.

    Moses = figure of the holder of the Petrine Ministry, the Pope.

    Aaron = figure of any bishop under the Pope.

    The quote from Exodus should be read "And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee as God to Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

    This means the Pope is above the secular ruler in spiritual matters. And the bishops, following the instructions of the Pope, are to be the emissaries of the Pope in their dioceses.

    The rest of what you say, I agree with.


    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #125 on: August 22, 2024, 02:31:39 AM »
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  • Josh, may I suggest that Moses is a figure of the Vicar of Christ, not of God Himself, i.e., Jesus Christ.

    Moses = figure of the holder of the Petrine Ministry, the Pope.

    Aaron = figure of any bishop under the Pope.

    The quote from Exodus should be read "And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee as God to Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

    This means the Pope is above the secular ruler in spiritual matters. And the bishops, following the instructions of the Pope, are to be the emissaries of the Pope in their dioceses.

    The rest of what you say, I agree with.

    The following should help and makes some excellent points - https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-jesus-a-second-moses

    I was also using the Douay Rheims and both online and mine it says 'the' so not sure your source for that?

    There is also more typology, such as the six days and the cloud... the typology of the shining face of Moses and Christ's transfiguration. There is so much in fact that I don't see how anyone could not see the typology of Moses and Christ after reading it all.. there is still more for myself to unpack... The next step is Aaron and St Peter, which I'm glad you brought it up because I think Exodus 4:14-17 is even better -

    (The Lord being angry at Moses, said Aaron the Levite is thy brother, I know that he is eloquent: behold he cometh forth to meet thee, and seeing thee shall be glad at heart. Speak to him, and put my words in his mouth: and I will be in thy mouth, and in his mouth, and will shew you what you must do. He shall speak in thy stead to the people, and shall be thy mouth: but thou shalt be to him in those things that pertain to God. And take this rod in thy hand, wherewith thou shalt do the signs.) Exodus 3:14-17


    The Vicar of Moses... later the budding of Aaron's rod.


    (He returned on the following day, and found that the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi, was budded: and that the buds swelling it had bloomed blossoms, which spreading the leaves, were formed into almonds. Moses therefore brought out all the rods from before the Lord to all the children of Israel: and they saw, and every one received their rods. And the Lord said to Moses: Carry back the rod of Aaron into the tabernacle of the testimony, that it may be kept there for a token of the rebellious children of Israel, and that their complaints may cease from me lest they die.) Numbers 17:8-10

    Aaron made the golden calf and St Peter denied Him three times... now with Aaron he was the beginning of a single line of succession of High Priest... now we have St Peter given not only the promise of the gates of hell not prevailing, but also charging him as the rock on which Christ will build the Church and giving him the authority to bind and loose... the keys.

    (And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.) Matthew 16:18-19


    So the only question is whether Bergoglio was validly elected or not... and we already had a valid successor who was given the keys... Pope Benedict XVI was validly elected and had the keys and he was deposed and usurped, there is no such thing as 2 Popes or shared Papacy... not even St Pope Celestine V tried to retain the name and garments... St Celestine V tried to return to his monastic life before he was arrested and imprisoned by his so called 'successor'... nothing says free and fair quite like that... Pope Benedict XVI had to know of this... but as he once lamented 'my authority ends at the door' surrounded on all sides there was little he could do IMO. Also at a time when the propaganda and USA Deep State were at the height of their power under the Obama Administration.

    Now I do not at all think by simply correcting this grave injustice and usurpation that all would be suddenly well in the Church as I think Pope Benedict XVI and others erred and that Vatican II needs to also be addressed... but it'd be a start at least.

    God Bless

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #126 on: August 22, 2024, 02:53:30 AM »
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  • Now I do not at all think by simply correcting this grave injustice and usurpation that all would be suddenly well in the Church as I think Pope Benedict XVI and others erred and that Vatican II needs to also be addressed... but it'd be a start at least.

    One more thing, I also think we need to be patient and let Bergoglio play out until the end... I follow the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI in his actions other than to try and make people aware of this so they don't follow Bergoglio to perdition... but not to take such matters into my own hands and to be patient.

    "Our Lady of Victory, Ark of the New Covenant, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Pray for us."

    God Bless

    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #127 on: August 22, 2024, 03:00:16 AM »
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  • Your idea of "new" as regards new ideas vs what the Church has always taught and what the faithful have always believed is ridiculous. There has been nothing new, no new doctrines, beliefs, ideas or whatever since the death of the last Apostle. Each an every doctrine of the Church, all of our Catholic beliefs (excepting those continued from the Old Testament) began with Christ and the Apostles and can be traced back to then. If they can't be traced back to then through the Church, then they are new doctrines. New doctrines are not Catholic, new doctrines are either error or heresy. 

    Your attempt at redefining "what kind of early we are talking about" is ridiculous. You can read a snip from St. Vincent here.

    I guess it depends what one means by 'new' when saying that.

    An example is Mary's title of Co-Redemptrix.

    When a future legitimately elected Pope officially recognises this, then in one sense it will be 'new' but in another sense it is not new at all.

    After all, when we look at Genesis, Adam brought death into the world and is responsible for our fall... but Eve is inseparably linked and will be the one to crush the head of the serpent... So in relation to the fall, Eve is absolutely co-something and it couldn't have happened without her.

    Now we look at the new Adam (Christ) who is our one and only Redeemer... but we also have a new Eve, the Blessed Virgin Mary... who has to be Co-Redemptrix because without which none of it is possible. Then we've got the Ark of the New Covenant, New Queen Mother etc all inseparable to our salvation and while obviously not God, co-something and inseparable to our salvation. 

    Then looking back at Moses and Aaron... Moses gave them the Law and the High Priesthood, a single line of succession with Aaron being the first... now they couldn't just jettison the law... so there were limits to what they could and couldn't do IMO. They also made a mess of it at times too... especially with Annas and Caiaphas, after all, why take Jesus to Annas first if Caiaphas were the legitimate High Priest? They also had factions too with the Pharisees, Sadducees and Samaritans.

    God Bless


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #128 on: August 22, 2024, 05:17:48 AM »
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  • I guess it depends what one means by 'new' when saying that.

    An example is Mary's title of Co-Redemptrix.

    When a future legitimately elected Pope officially recognises this, then in one sense it will be 'new' but in another sense it is not new at all.
    If that were to happen, the only thing that would be new would be the status of the title, it would be raised from a doctrine to a dogma, iow, it would go from being something that has always been believed by all the faithful since the time of the Apostles, to a declared dogma, elevating the doctrine to a dogma, binding all Catholics to believe it under pain of sin.

    Take the Assumption for an example, it was not new. The bishops all agreed that Our Lady's Assumption is something that has always been taught, which makes the doctrine infallible even without it being a defined dogma, but it was not some new idea.....("concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs"), which is what he says below.....

    Quote
    "...This "outstanding agreement of the Catholic prelates and the faithful," affirming that the bodily Assumption of God's Mother into heaven can be defined as a dogma of faith, since it shows us the concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs, thus by itself and in an entirely certain and infallible way, manifests this privilege as a truth revealed by God and contained in that divine deposit which Christ has delivered to his Spouse to be guarded faithfully and to be taught infallibly..."



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #129 on: August 22, 2024, 03:00:49 PM »
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  • The following should help and makes some excellent points - https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-jesus-a-second-moses

    I was also using the Douay Rheims and both online and mine it says 'the' so not sure your source for that?

    There is also more typology, such as the six days and the cloud... the typology of the shining face of Moses and Christ's transfiguration. There is so much in fact that I don't see how anyone could not see the typology of Moses and Christ after reading it all.. there is still more for myself to unpack... The next step is Aaron and St Peter, which I'm glad you brought it up because I think Exodus 4:14-17 is even better -

    (The Lord being angry at Moses, said Aaron the Levite is thy brother, I know that he is eloquent: behold he cometh forth to meet thee, and seeing thee shall be glad at heart. Speak to him, and put my words in his mouth: and I will be in thy mouth, and in his mouth, and will shew you what you must do. He shall speak in thy stead to the people, and shall be thy mouth: but thou shalt be to him in those things that pertain to God. And take this rod in thy hand, wherewith thou shalt do the signs.) Exodus 3:14-17


    The Vicar of Moses... later the budding of Aaron's rod.


    (He returned on the following day, and found that the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi, was budded: and that the buds swelling it had bloomed blossoms, which spreading the leaves, were formed into almonds. Moses therefore brought out all the rods from before the Lord to all the children of Israel: and they saw, and every one received their rods. And the Lord said to Moses: Carry back the rod of Aaron into the tabernacle of the testimony, that it may be kept there for a token of the rebellious children of Israel, and that their complaints may cease from me lest they die.) Numbers 17:8-10

    Aaron made the golden calf and St Peter denied Him three times... now with Aaron he was the beginning of a single line of succession of High Priest... now we have St Peter given not only the promise of the gates of hell not prevailing, but also charging him as the rock on which Christ will build the Church and giving him the authority to bind and loose... the keys.

    (And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.) Matthew 16:18-19


    So the only question is whether Bergoglio was validly elected or not... and we already had a valid successor who was given the keys... Pope Benedict XVI was validly elected and had the keys and he was deposed and usurped, there is no such thing as 2 Popes or shared Papacy... not even St Pope Celestine V tried to retain the name and garments... St Celestine V tried to return to his monastic life before he was arrested and imprisoned by his so called 'successor'... nothing says free and fair quite like that... Pope Benedict XVI had to know of this... but as he once lamented 'my authority ends at the door' surrounded on all sides there was little he could do IMO. Also at a time when the propaganda and USA Deep State were at the height of their power under the Obama Administration.

    Now I do not at all think by simply correcting this grave injustice and usurpation that all would be suddenly well in the Church as I think Pope Benedict XVI and others erred and that Vatican II needs to also be addressed... but it'd be a start at least.

    God Bless


    There is no doubt that Jesus Christ himself is intimately tied into the "figure" of Moses because "Peter" is the Vicar of Christ. But the strongest counter-example to your position that Moses can be figuratively identified with Jesus is found in Numbers chapter 20:

    Quote
    6 And Moses and Aaron leaving the multitude, went into the tabernacle of the covenant, and fell flat upon the ground, and cried to the Lord, and said: O Lord God, hear the cry of this people, and open to them thy treasure, a fountain of living water, that being satisfied, they may cease to murmur. And the glory of the Lord appeared over them.  7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:  8 Take the rod, and assemble the people together, thou and Aaron thy brother, and speak to the rock before them, and it shall yield waters. And when thou hast brought forth water out of the rock, all the multitude and their cattle shall drink.  9 Moses therefore took the rod, which was before the Lord, as he had commanded him,  10 And having gathered together the multitude before the rock, he said to them: Hear, ye rebellious and incredulous: Can we bring you forth water out of this rock?
    11 And when Moses had lifted up his hand, and struck the rock twice with the rod, there came forth water in great abundance, so that the people and their cattle drank,  12 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron: Because you have not believed me, to sanctify me before the children of Israel, you shall not bring these people into the land, which I will give them.  13 This is the Water of contradiction, where the children of Israel strove with words against the Lord, and he was sanctified in them.  14 In the mean time Moses sent messengers from Cades to the king of Edom, to say: Thus saith thy brother Israel: Thou knowest all the labour that hath come upon us:  15 In what manner our fathers went down into Egypt, and there we dwelt a long time, and the Egyptians afflicted us and our fathers.
    [11] "The rock": This rock was a figure of Christ, and the water that issued out from the rock, of his precious blood, the source of all our good.
    [12] "You have not believed": The fault of Moses and Aaron, on this occasion, was a certain diffidence and weakness of faith; not doubting of God's power or veracity; but apprehending the unworthiness of that rebellious and incredulous people, and therefore speaking with some ambiguity.
    [13] "The Water of contradiction": Or strife. Hebrew, Meribah.

    If Moses was simply a figure of Jesus Christ, "the Lord" would not have said what he said to Moses above.

    So, going back to what I said originally, Moses is a figure of the holder of the Petrine Ministry.

    "Peter" is not a single historical person. Simon bar Jona was the first "Peter," the first rock chosen by Jesus. Simon Peter was laid on top of the "chief corner stone," Jesus Christ himself (Ephesians 2:20):

    Quote
    Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

    The "figure" of Moses is representing not individual people in salvation history, but rather the "ministry" of "the rock." Each "rock" (each Peter) is laid upon the "rock" before him to build "the Church." And Jesus is "the head of the corner" (psalm 117:22):

    Quote
    The stone which the builders rejected; the same is become the head of the corner.

    All the "rocks" (Peters) have authority because they line up with the cornerstone, Jesus. Otherwise the edifice of the Church will "fall," think the "fall of Babylon." Babylon is a figure of the counterfeit church, a false church not in line with Jesus's teachings.

    Now moving to Aaron. The figure of Aaron does not represent a single person. Aaron represents the entire episcopacy. Here is part of the Old Rite Priestly Preface:

    Quote
    Thus in the desert you propagated the spirit of Moses through the minds of seventy wise men; with whom he used auxiliaries, and easily governed innumerable multitudes of the people. Thus you poured out the abundance of the paternal fullness of Aaron's sons, Eleazar and Ithamar; so that the service of the priest was sufficient for the saving sacrifices, and for the more frequent office of the Sacraments.

    As I said, the figure of Moses represents the Petrine ministry, the Pope. The auxiliaries, the "Aarons," are the bishops who "governed innumerable multitudes of people." And "Aaron's sons" are "Eleazar and Ithamar," who represent the priests. In the priestly ordination ceremony, it is the bishop, not the Pope, who is conferring the priestly dignity on the ordinand.

    And this "figure" of Aaron as representing the episcopacy (the high priesthood) is made even more clear in Old Rite Episcopal Consecration Preface:

    Quote
    O God, who gave your servant Moses a familiar secret, among other heavenly docuмents of culture, and also instituting the habit of priestly clothing, you ordered the chosen Aaron to be clothed in a mystical garment during the ceremonies, so that the succeeding posterity might acquire a sense of intelligence from the examples of the former, so that the learning of your doctrine would not be lacking in any age. Whereas among the ancients the very appearance of signs obtained reverence, and with us the experiments of things are more certain than the riddles of figures. For his former habit of priesthood is the adornment of our minds, and the honor of the pontifical glory is no longer commended to us by the honor of the vestments, but by the splendor of the souls. Because even those who were then blindly flattered by the carnal, sought rather to understand what was in them. And therefore to this servant of yours, whom you have chosen for the ministry of high priesthood, grant, we beseech you, Lord, this grace, so that whatever those veils signified in the glitter of gold, in the luster of gems, and in the variety of many kinds of work, this may be made clear in his manners and actions. Complete in your Priest the sum of your ministry, and equipped with the ornaments of all glorification, sanctify with the dew of heavenly ointment.

    Moving on to your final topic. Bergoglio was most certainly NOT validly elected. Go to www.antipope.com if you want to see the argument.

    In a nutshell, the current law governing papal elections requires that the previous Pope die before a new papal election can even be called. Yes, the Pope can "resign" as the Bishop of Rome. And that resignation will cause the See of Rome to be legally vacant. But the Apostolic See is not the See of Rome. Those are two different legal entities.

    The Apostolic See only becomes legally vacant upon the death of the Pope. Universi Dominici Gregis deals with a "vacancy in the Apostolic See." There is no other legal way to call a conclave and elect a new Pope.

    So BXVI validly resigned as Bishop of Rome, and became "emeritus" Bishop of Rome. This is all very canonical. This left the Apostolic See to the very limited government of the Curial Cardinals per the restrictions laid down in UDG. However, those Cardinals usurped their limited authority and illegally elected Bergoglio as antipope. His election, however, was totally null and void.


    Offline josh987654321

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    Re: Is Francis still pope?
    « Reply #130 on: August 23, 2024, 09:31:49 AM »
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  • but Eve is inseparably linked and will be the one to crush the head of the serpent...

    Ah, I made a significant typo that I need to correct, I meant to say the 'New Eve' will crush the head of the serpent, not the Eve of Genesis who listened to the serpent.

    I'll also try to get to your post some time Angelus, but there is a lot there so it's not exactly going to be a quick response. :)

    God Bless