False Anti Pope Francis has died. The Bergoglian Captivity has finally ended.Did it just happen?
I know we don't know who went to heaven, and who went to hell, but hear me out --No, they do not. I jokingly mentioned to HIs Excellency dueing my Christmas 2024 phone call to him that we should start working on the cause for his sainthood. His Excellency got a big chuckle out of that. With the help of our prayers, may +Williamson's time in Purgatory be short.
Nevertheless, I don't think God operates like in the meme/political cartoon where you have 3 or 4 slots on top of a table to insert your ballot/vote, but under the table you can see that ALL FOUR SLOTS end up in the same bin for counting. That would be deceptive and unjust. (If anyone has that meme/cartoon, PLEASE POST IT. Thanks!)
Imagine one slot being +ABL, Bishop Williamson, etc. -- suffering a white martyrdom, being despised with Christ, speaking the truth even when the world hates him for it -- and then you have Pope Francis, basically destroying the Church.
Do you REALLY THINK those paths are the same? How could they lead to the same place?
I know we don't know who went to heaven, and who went to hell, but hear me out --Excellent point. We will probably hear much bleating about God's infinite Mercy, St Francis the Merciful, blah blah blah. But God's Holy Justice is perfectly equal to His Mercy. Francis did not leave the Church better than he found it. How many souls have been lost on his watch? He undeniably spoke heretical words more than once. Functioning on one lung is not a free pass to destroy the faith of millions through subterfuge and chicanery.
Nevertheless, I don't think God operates like in the meme/political cartoon where you have 3 or 4 slots on top of a table to insert your ballot/vote, but under the table you can see that ALL FOUR SLOTS end up in the same bin for counting. That would be deceptive and unjust. (If anyone has that meme/cartoon, PLEASE POST IT. Thanks!)
Imagine one slot being +ABL, Bishop Williamson, etc. -- suffering a white martyrdom, being despised with Christ, speaking the truth even when the world hates him for it -- and then you have Pope Francis, basically destroying the Church.
Do you REALLY THINK those paths are the same? How could they lead to the same place?
https://catholicsay.com/the-powerful-devotion-to-5-holy-wounds-of-jesus/No.
POPE FRANCIS I, R.I.P. +
Someone on CathInfo has already condemned our late Pope to hell, and that is not permitted btw. Our Lord alone judges at the personal judgement, and woe to anyone who judges the interior forum. Certainly many many of the Pope's actions and words were shocking, but only God can judge the heart, absolutely.
Anyway, here are 2 'nauseating' facts from His Holiness . March18, 2020Articles (https://catholicsay.com/category/articles/)People and History (https://catholicsay.com/category/people-and-history/)The powerful devotion to 5 Holy Wounds of Jesus
Raphael BenedictLast Updated: September 29, 2021
Pope Francis is one of the top supporters of this ancient devotion.(https://catholicsay.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/cathopic_1546527520140320-scaled-e1632922966630.jpg)
Over the centuries, the powerful devotion (https://catholicsay.com/a-powerful-collection-of-prayers-to-the-holy-wounds-of-christ/) to 5 Holy Wounds of Jesus grew among Christians. This devotion commemorates the five principal wounds that Christ suffered during his Passion and death. Many saints practiced this devotion and it is a favorite of Pope Francis.
https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/3-of-pope-francis-s-favorite-devotions?srsltid=AfmBOoqt1BwFLwrO6Q0U-PuDWCnD6wvtORzQxlMvuchC2pawSlktKXd-
Ash Wednesday, 2021
...Lest we go astray on our journey, let us stand before the cross of Jesus: the silent throne of God. Let us daily contemplate his wounds, the wounds that he brought to heaven and shows daily to the Father in his prayer of intercession. Let us daily contemplate those wounds. In them, we recognize our emptiness, our shortcomings, the wounds of our sin and all the hurt we have experienced. Yet there too, we see clearly that God points his finger at no one, but rather opens his arms to embrace us. His wounds were inflicted for our sake, and by those wounds we have been healed (cf. 1 Pet 2:25; Is 53:5). By kissing those wounds, ..."
Pope Francis, R.I.P +
https://catholicsay.com/the-powerful-devotion-to-5-holy-wounds-of-jesus/Learn catholic teaching. Confucius is presumed damnned, just as Confucius is, so is Bergoglio. He was not a Catholic and we have no proof he converted to we presume he is in hell. Also it is certain that the false prophet will be damned. Bergoglio is presumed to be in hell at this moment.
POPE FRANCIS I, R.I.P. +
Someone on CathInfo has already condemned our late Pope to hell, and that is not permitted btw. Our Lord alone judges at the personal judgement, and woe to anyone who judges the interior forum. Certainly many many of the Pope's actions and words were shocking, but only God can judge the heart, absolutely.
Anyway, here are 2 'nauseating' facts from His Holiness . March18, 2020Articles (https://catholicsay.com/category/articles/)People and History (https://catholicsay.com/category/people-and-history/)The powerful devotion to 5 Holy Wounds of Jesus
Raphael BenedictLast Updated: September 29, 2021
Pope Francis is one of the top supporters of this ancient devotion.(https://catholicsay.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/cathopic_1546527520140320-scaled-e1632922966630.jpg)
Over the centuries, the powerful devotion (https://catholicsay.com/a-powerful-collection-of-prayers-to-the-holy-wounds-of-christ/) to 5 Holy Wounds of Jesus grew among Christians. This devotion commemorates the five principal wounds that Christ suffered during his Passion and death. Many saints practiced this devotion and it is a favorite of Pope Francis.
https://ascensionpress.com/blogs/articles/3-of-pope-francis-s-favorite-devotions?srsltid=AfmBOoqt1BwFLwrO6Q0U-PuDWCnD6wvtORzQxlMvuchC2pawSlktKXd-
Ash Wednesday, 2021
...Lest we go astray on our journey, let us stand before the cross of Jesus: the silent throne of God. Let us daily contemplate his wounds, the wounds that he brought to heaven and shows daily to the Father in his prayer of intercession. Let us daily contemplate those wounds. In them, we recognize our emptiness, our shortcomings, the wounds of our sin and all the hurt we have experienced. Yet there too, we see clearly that God points his finger at no one, but rather opens his arms to embrace us. His wounds were inflicted for our sake, and by those wounds we have been healed (cf. 1 Pet 2:25; Is 53:5). By kissing those wounds, ..."
Pope Francis, R.I.P +
| Deus, laudem meam. David in the person of Christ, prayeth against his persecutors; more especially the traitor Judas: foretelling and approving his just punishment for his obstinacy in sin and final impenitence. 1 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=1-#x)Unto the end, a psalm for David. 2 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=2-#x)O God, be not thou silent in my praise: for the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful man is opened against me. 3 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=3-#x)They have spoken against me with deceitful tongues; and they have compassed me about with words of hatred; and have fought against me without cause. 4 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=4-#x)Instead of making me a return of love, they detracted me: but I gave myself to prayer. 5 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=5-#x)And they repaid me evil for good: and hatred for my love. 6 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=6-#x)Set thou the sinner over him: and may the devil stand at his right hand. 7 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=7-#x)When he is judged, may he go out condemned; and may his prayer be turned to sin. 8 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=8-#x)May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take. 9 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=9-#x)May his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. 10 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=10-#x)Let his children be carried about vagabonds, and beg; and let them be cast out of their dwellings. [6] "Set thou the sinner over him": Give to the devil, that arch-sinner, power over him: let him enter into him, and possess him. The imprecations, contained in the thirty verses of this psalm, are opposed to the thirty pieces of silver for which Judas betrayed our Lord; and are to be taken as prophetic denunciations of the evils that should befall the traitor and his accomplices the Jews; and not properly as curses. 11 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=11-#x)May the usurer search all his substance: and let strangers plunder his labours. 12 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=12-#x)May there be none to help him: nor none to pity his fatherless offspring. 13 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=13-#x)May his posterity be cut off; in one generation may his name be blotted out. 14 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=14-#x)May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered in the sight of the Lord: and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. 15 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=15-#x)May they be before the Lord continually, and let the memory of them perish from the earth: 16 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=16-#x)because he remembered not to shew mercy, 17 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=17-#x)But persecuted the poor man and the beggar; and the broken in heart, to put him to death. 18 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=18-#x)And he loved cursing, and it shall come unto him: and he would not have blessing, and it shall be far from him. And he put on cursing, like a garment: and it went in like water into his entrails, and like oil in his bones. 19 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=19-#x)May it be unto him like a garment which covereth him; and like a girdle with which he is girded continually. 20 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=20-#x)This is the work of them who detract me before the Lord; and who speak evils against my soul. 21 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=21-#x)But thou, O Lord, do with me for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is sweet. Do thou deliver me, 22 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=22-#x)for I am poor and needy, and my heart is troubled within me. 23 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=23-#x)I am taken away like the shadow when it declineth: and I am shaken off as locusts. 24 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=24-#x)My knees are weakened through fasting: and my flesh is changed for oil. 25 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=25-#x)And I am become a reproach to them: they saw me and they shaked their heads, [24] "For oil": Propter oleum. The meaning is, my flesh is changed, being perfectly emaciated and dried up, as having lost all its oil or fatness. 26 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=26-#x)Help me, O Lord my God; save me according to thy mercy. 27 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=27-#x)And let them know that this is thy hand: and that thou, O Lord, hast done it. 28 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=28-#x)They will curse and thou will bless: let them that rise up against me be confounded: but thy servant shall rejoice. 29 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=29-#x)Let them that detract me be clothed with shame: and let them be covered with their confusion as with a double cloak. 30 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=30-#x)I will give great thanks to the Lord with my mouth: and in the midst of many I will praise him. 31 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=31-#x)Because he hath stood at the right hand of the poor, to save my soul from persecutors. |
POPE FRANCIS I, R.I.P. +
No, they do not. I jokingly mentioned to HIs Excellency dueing my Christmas 2024 phone call to him that we should start working on the cause for his sainthood. His Excellency got a big chuckle out of that. With the help of our prayers, may +Williamson's time in Purgatory be short.Amen !
I have no personal doubt Bergy is in Hell alongside Judas Iscariot and the rest of the eternally damned. We know the reality of Hell is such that we should never wish one be sent there by our own judgement. Nonetheless the punishment is just.Bergy is down below but it is for all the souls who have suffered because of him that I offer my prayers and sufferings.
I will sing praises to Jesus Christ, who through HIs Resurrection has vanquished Death, Hell and Satan.:incense::pray:
Quote from: Predestination2 (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=76752.msg980529#msg980529) 4/21/2025, 7:57:44 PMFr. Hesse stated that the Church has no jurisdiction over the dead. The Church doesn't claim that so and so is in hell...(that being said it doesn't look good for Judas Iscariot). I'm glad you say "presumed", because God's ways are not man's ways...
Bergoglio is in hell with Judas, Confucius, Buddha, ghandi, Luther, mark of Ephesus, Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wojtyla, Ratzinger and anybody else who was not a member of the barque of Peter outside of which absolutely nobody is saved.
All these people are presumed to have not converted
Quote from: Predestination2 (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=76752.msg980512#msg980512) 4/21/2025, 5:31:20 PM
Learn catholic teaching. Confucius is presumed damnned, just as Confucius is, so is Bergoglio. He was not a Catholic and we have no proof he converted to we presume he is in hell. Also it is certain that the false prophet will be damned. Bergoglio is presumed to be in hell at this moment.
Imprecatory psalm against bergoglio, the man who denied hell now finds himself in it. What irony.
Deus, laudem meam. David in the person of Christ, prayeth against his persecutors; more especially the traitor Judas: foretelling and approving his just punishment for his obstinacy in sin and final impenitence. 1 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=1-#x)Unto the end, a psalm for David. 2 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=2-#x)O God, be not thou silent in my praise: for the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful man is opened against me. 3 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=21&ch=108&l=3-#x)...
He's lying in state in what looks like a masonic pyramid
(https://i.imgur.com/mglslzt.png)
He's lying in state in what looks like a masonic pyramidIs that Parolin in the top left photo? Looks like him. Why is Bergoglio wearing red?
(https://i.imgur.com/mglslzt.png)
Did it just happen?They're quoting the spokesman. Here is the direct translation from the original (https://www.diocesidicomo.it/papa-francesco-e-tornato-alla-casa-del-padre/):
I see now that Fox news has a headline "Pope Francis, the Bishop of Rome, returned to "home of the Father"
So I guess they're quoting someone who basically canonized him. *ugh*
Is that Parolin in the top left photo? Looks like him. Why is Bergoglio wearing red?Yes, Parolin.
Is that Parolin in the top left photo? Looks like him. Why is Bergoglio wearing red?
Parolin has definitely been auditioning for the papacy and promoting himself, putting himself front and center of almost every photo op ... so that I'm surprised he hasn't rented out a boat with sheep on it and started cruising up and down the Tiber.Ha, ha - don't give him ideas!
:laugh1:
Ha, ha - don't give him ideas!
But we know the old saying: chi entra papa in conclave, ne esse cardinale!
He's lying in state in what looks like a masonic pyramid
(https://i.imgur.com/mglslzt.png)
Sinful souls are not punished: those who repent obtain God’s forgiveness and join the ranks of souls who contemplate him, but those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, sinful souls simply disappear.These heretical ravings are directly opposed to the Catholic Faith, which teaches us that there is a particular Judgment for everyone, which Bergoglio could not escape. His soul has therefore not disappeared, nor has it dissolved: he will have to account for the crimes he has committed, first of all having usurped the throne of Peter in order to destroy the Catholic Church and lose so many souls.
With the Pope garbed in a red chasuble, slippers and gloves and a gold-and-white miter on his head, some 60,000 mourners filed past his body. Then, with more than 5,000 soldiers and police standing guard against Italy’s unpredictable terrorists, a hearse drove the body along the 15-mile route to St. Peter’s. For a time the body was sealed in its casket. But when Cardinals arriving in Rome voiced disappointment, it was again put on view—in front of the high altar, where only the Pope or his delegate may say Mass. (The body had to be injected with more formaldehyde because it was already decomposing in the late summer heat.)Paul VI’s biographer, Peter Hebblethwaite, relates the following about Montini’s death: “As Mass ends Paul has a massive heart attack. It is as though he had exploded from within. [His private secretary Fr. John] Magee thinks he would have been thrown out of bed had his hand not been held” (Paul VI: The First Modern Pope (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/080910461X/interregnumnow-20) [New York, NY: Paulist Press, 1993], p. 710).
(“In Search of a Pope” (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,919823,00.html), TIME Magazine, Aug. 21, 1978)
Bergoglio is in hell with Judas, Confucius, Buddha, ghandi, Luther, mark of Ephesus, Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wojtyla, Ratzinger and anybody else who was not a member of the barque of Peter outside of which absolutely nobody is saved.It is important that his body be kept intact for the post-anti-papacy excommunication trials.
All these people are presumed to have not converted
Thanks for posting this fascinating point Giovanni!
(https://novusordowatch.org/wp-content/uploads/paul6-up-close-green-black.jpg)
Note: It’s believed Dr. Lisi slowly poisoned Pope Pius XII under masonic orders, to make way for Montini, who needed to be recovered from Pacelli’s banishment in Milan. Roncalli was the masonic member who fulfilled that mission.
Bergoglio is in hell with Judas, Confucius, Buddha, ghandi, Luther, mark of Ephesus, Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wojtyla, Ratzinger and anybody else who was not a member of the barque of Peter outside of which absolutely nobody is saved.I couldn't ageee more. Hopefully, if and when TRUE CATHOLICISM returns to Rome, the cursed and rotted corpses of Bergoglio and all of the other false anti popes who deliberately and cunningly misled millions and millions of the devout faithful for so long are finally brought before a Holy Tribunal. There their ecclesiastical crimes will be read before the devout faithful followed swiftly by the Tribunal Heads taking their evil, cursed, and rotted corpses and burning them on a huge pyre for all to see. Only THEN will sanctity return to the Church and Rome.
All these people are presumed to have not converted
I couldn't ageee more. Hopefully, if and when TRUE CATHOLICISM returns to Rome, the cursed and rotted corpses of Bergoglio and all of the other false anti popes who deliberately and cunningly misled millions and millions of the devout faithful for so long are finally brought before a Holy Tribunal. There their ecclesiastical crimes will be read before the devout faithful followed swiftly by the Tribunal Heads taking their evil, cursed, and rotted corpses and burning them on a huge pyre for all to see. Only THEN will sanctity return to the Church and Rome.
There's nothing even remotely resembling "sanctity" in this post and in most of you Pharisee Trads who are celebrating Bergoglio's consignment to Hell. It's disgraceful, makes all Trads look bad, and makes one wonder if Bergoglio didn't have some valid points in denouncing the Trad-Pharisees.Excellent post, Lad. Excellent post.
It's a shame what's happened to you people.
While what they did was extremely grave and must be punished, that punishment is up to God and not to you, and in fact whatever evils God permitted them to perpetrated were God's punishment to the rest of us, who, if Bergoglio is in Hell, deserve to be sitting right there next to him. It's only by the grace of God that we were rescued from being Modernists ourselves ... and now you should pray to be rescued from being a bitter Pharisee, since I am beginning to wonder which is worse.
There's about a half dozen of you clowns here spewing this garbage and who should have been banned from here the minute you started up with this.
Oh, and you'll also be held accountable for anyone who may be put off to Traditional Catholicism due to attitudes like this ... and Our Lord warned that you will be judged with the same standard by which you judge others.
Excellent post, Lad. Excellent post.I'll second that motion, Ladislaus!!
There's about a half dozen of you clowns here spewing this garbage and who should have been banned from here the minute you started up with this.
I second this motion. People are being scandalized or worse.
There's nothing even remotely resembling "sanctity" in this post and in most of you Pharisee Trads who are celebrating Bergoglio's consignment to Hell. It's disgraceful, makes all Trads look bad, and makes one wonder if Bergoglio didn't have some valid points in denouncing the Trad-Pharisees.The lack of charity is scandalous. Again, I say, if someone goes to hell, then the devil wins and God loses. Some of you act as if the Church/God wins when sinners go to hell; it's the opposite. You people need a reality check. This is not some sport-game or politics - people going to hell is serious business. God is not happy. Our Lady is not happy. But some of you seem to be? :facepalm:
It's a shame what's happened to you people.
While what they did was extremely grave and must be punished, that punishment is up to God and not to you, and in fact whatever evils God permitted them to perpetrated were God's punishment to the rest of us, who, if Bergoglio is in Hell, deserve to be sitting right there next to him. It's only by the grace of God that we were rescued from being Modernists ourselves ... and now you should pray to be rescued from being a bitter Pharisee, since I am beginning to wonder which is worse.
There's about a half dozen of you clowns here spewing this garbage and who should have been banned from here the minute you started up with this.
Oh, and you'll also be held accountable for anyone who may be put off to Traditional Catholicism due to attitudes like this ... and Our Lord warned that you will be judged with the same standard by which you judge others.
There's nothing even remotely resembling "sanctity" in this post and in most of you Pharisee Trads who are celebrating Bergoglio's consignment to Hell. It's disgraceful, makes all Trads look bad, and makes one wonder if Bergoglio didn't have some valid points in denouncing the Trad-Pharisees.Thank you for saying this.
It's a shame what's happened to you people.
While what they did was extremely grave and must be punished, that punishment is up to God and not to you, and in fact whatever evils God permitted them to perpetrated were God's punishment to the rest of us, who, if Bergoglio is in Hell, deserve to be sitting right there next to him. It's only by the grace of God that we were rescued from being Modernists ourselves ... and now you should pray to be rescued from being a bitter Pharisee, since I am beginning to wonder which is worse.
There's about a half dozen of you clowns here spewing this garbage and who should have been banned from here the minute you started up with this.
Oh, and you'll also be held accountable for anyone who may be put off to Traditional Catholicism due to attitudes like this ... and Our Lord warned that you will be judged with the same standard by which you judge others.
There's nothing even remotely resembling "sanctity" in this post and in most of you Pharisee Trads who are celebrating Bergoglio's consignment to Hell. It's disgraceful, makes all Trads look bad, and makes one wonder if Bergoglio didn't have some valid points in denouncing the Trad-Pharisees.There are times that I wonder: would some Trad forums be on the Index today if they were around back then? If people were posting like what you've described, probably.
It's a shame what's happened to you people.
While what they did was extremely grave and must be punished, that punishment is up to God and not to you, and in fact whatever evils God permitted them to perpetrated were God's punishment to the rest of us, who, if Bergoglio is in Hell, deserve to be sitting right there next to him. It's only by the grace of God that we were rescued from being Modernists ourselves ... and now you should pray to be rescued from being a bitter Pharisee, since I am beginning to wonder which is worse.
There's about a half dozen of you clowns here spewing this garbage and who should have been banned from here the minute you started up with this.
Oh, and you'll also be held accountable for anyone who may be put off to Traditional Catholicism due to attitudes like this ... and Our Lord warned that you will be judged with the same standard by which you judge others.
I doubt there is a spot in hell that is hot enough for Bergoglio and his ilk. The people who are denouncing the many Trads ---who are rejoicing that Bergoglio is hopefully burning, bleeding, and screaming in unbearable agony for all eternity in the worst circle of hell---are the reason why the Church has become weaker and weaker over the centuries.I understand that you are angry. Show me in the New Testament where Jesus directly approved of such hard speech as what you have spoken above. You sound like Peter who cut off the soldier's ear. What did Jesus do? Jesus told Peter to stop and Jesus put the soldier's ear back on.
Whether they realize it or not, they are a much bigger problem than those they criticize of having "bitter zeal" because they have focused so much attention on "mercy mercy mercy" (probably influenced by Fraud Faustina's "Divine Mercy Chaplet") that they utterly ignore and possibly even despise "justice justice justice" being administered towards those who have deceived millions and millions who put their spirituality and souls into the care and trust of who they truly believed to be "the Vicar of Christ on earth."
Had these Trads who have so-called "bitter zeal" (even the late Bishop Williamson criticized Trads for having this "bitter zeal"-- which proves that even a great man such as he could become weak-minded spiritually and
not take his religion as seriously as he should) said these things toward ANYONE ELSE, then the criticism of having "bitter zeal" would be totally justified.
However those men, who posed as "the Vicar of Christ on earth" and deliberately deceived millions and millions of faithfully devout individuals, are not just some GRAVE SINNERS who should be shown the mercy which should be shown to everyone else. No, they are the worst of the worst! And just as the Lord said it was better for Judas not to have ever been born than to do what he did, it was also better for Bergoglio not to have ever been born than to do what he and his vile predecessors had done.
Therefore, those who criticize certain Trads of having "bitter zeal" toward the Satanic Bergoglio (whether they realize it or not) are reminiscent of the cowardly traitors who betrayed their "Fuhrer" and their "Reich" during the final days of the war when they knew there was no way to win. Those weak-minded and weak-willed people chose to "surrender" to the Communist Devils rather than to fight them to the bitter end.
When fighting a war, whether physical or spiritual, "surrendering" is NEVER an option and neither is showing "mercy" to the Devil.
Whether they realize it or not, they are a much bigger problem than those they criticize of having "bitter zeal" because they have focused so much attention on "mercy mercy mercy"You obviously are clueless as to why Judas was damned. He was not damned for betraying Christ but because he despaired and rejected God's mercy. :facepalm:
And just as the Lord said it was better for Judas not to have ever been born than to do what he did,
When fighting a war, whether physical or spiritual, "surrendering" is NEVER an option and neither is showing "mercy" to the Devil.Francis was a human being, not a devil. God created him from all eternity, just like he created you. God desired that Francis go to heaven; that's why we pray that he converted. Because GOD WANTED HIM TO CONVERT.
Francis was a human being, not a devil. God created him from all eternity, just like he created you. God desired that Francis go to heaven; that's why we pray that he converted. Because GOD WANTED HIM TO CONVERT.With this attitude, it's no wonder the Church is in the mess it's in.
You have this misguided idea of the Church militant. Our job is to attack errors, not attack human beings. Our job is to pray against the devil, not wish that evildoers go to hell.
Show me in the New Testament where Jesus directly approved of such hard speech as what you have spoken above.Gladly: "As for these enemies of mine bring them here and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)
With this attitude, it's no wonder the Church is in the mess it's in.Your attitude is quite myopic and immature. You're only looking at evil from a human perspective (i.e. how it affects you). You're missing the big picture, in that this world is full of chaos, evil and sin. In spite of all of this, God wants ALL sinners to repent and have salvation with Him in heaven. That's what GOD WANTS.
Bergoglio, one of several false anti popes, was trusted with the most "sacred" responsibility on earth: to help strengthen and nurture the faith of the devout in the One True Church as the "Vicar of Christ on earth". He not only failed miserably at this but also intentionally did so with the most evil methods of deceit. He was no more the "Vicar of Christ on earth" than Satan.God still wanted him to convert. He wants all sinners to convert.
Gladly: "As for these enemies of mine bring them here and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)Here is the entire passage.
Bergoglio, one of several false anti popes, was trusted with the most "sacred" responsibility on earth: to help strengthen and nurture the faith of the devout in the One True Church as the "Vicar of Christ on earth". He not only failed miserably at this but also intentionally did so with the most evil methods of deceit. He was no more the "Vicar of Christ on earth" than Satan.
26 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=26-#x)But I say to you, that to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: and from him that hath not, even that which he hath, shall be taken from him. 27 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=27-#x)But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over them, bring them hither, and kill them before me. 28 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=28-#x)And having said these things, he went before, going up to Jerusalem. 29 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=29-#x)And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethania, unto the mount called Olivet, he sent two of his disciples, 30 (https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=19&l=30-#x)Saying: Go into the town which is over against you, at your entering into which you shall find the colt of an ass tied, on which no man ever hath sitten: loose him, and bring him hither.
What did Jesus do?Jesus went and got a whip and whipped some moneychangers out of his temple because they were desecrating it. Imagine what he would've done to Bergoglio and the other false "Vicars of Christ" if he walked the earth today! He probably would say to a Cardinal or Bishop what he said in Scripture: "Bring them here and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)
Jesus went and got a whip and whipped some moneychangers out of his temple because they were desecrating it. Imagine what he would've done to Bergoglio and the other false "Vicars of Christ" if he walked the earth today! He probably would say to a Cardinal or Bishop what he said in Scripture: "Bring them here and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27)1) All of God's corrective/punishments are done, so that the sinner may 'wake up' and repent.
It was THIS CORRECT READING of Scripture that lead and inspired faithfully devout Christians to defend Christendom against the Muslim armies during The Crusades and identify and punish manifest heretics during The Inquisitions. There was no talk of "Divine Mercy" toward the worst enemies of the Church and that's why the Church was strong back then.
This is why we didn't "just forgive" and just "show divine mercy" to the Church's enemies. The Church members did not let Muslims and Heretics get away with destroying the Church in centuries past. The Church fought enemies no matter who they were.Fighting the Church's enemies does NOT include wishing them to hell. :facepalm: You can fight an enemy and pray he converts. All at the same time.
"Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born." (Mark 14:21)....But the Catholic way is Union with God. The Catholic way is dying to self. There is enough in us to conquer, we don't need to distract ourselves with others. And once we have become servants of God, then we will hear what God wants us to do. God will call some to war, some to take care of the sick, some to convert sinners, etc.
This is why we didn't "just forgive" and just "show divine mercy" to the Church's enemies. The Church members did not let Muslims and Heretics get away with destroying the Church in centuries past. The Church fought enemies no matter who they were.
Today, most of the Church members have a self-defeating and suicidal attitude toward nurturing, strengthening and preserving their faith and their Church, which is strange since they "allegedly" believe thrir Church to be the One True Church. This is one reason I cannot stand the Novus Ordo Catholics and most Tradotional Catholics. They complain and complain endlessly about their Church being destroyed and then attack those who have a viable "solution" as being "bitterly zealous".
People who are extremely zealous simply take their religion much more seriously than those who are not extremely zealous. And if the One True Church and your religion is the most important thing in life, then to be extremely zealous makes perfect sense.
Please explain your viable solution.I did explain it above: A Holy Tribunal concluding with the burning of Bergoglio's cursed and rotting corpse on a pyre (along with the corpses of the other recent false popes).
I did explain it above: A Holy Tribunal concluding with the burning of Bergoglio's cursed and rotting corpse on a pyre (along with the corpses of the other recent false popes).Ok. But that is not in your control. It seems like wasted energy to have such thoughts. When we focus on the evils, do we we feel peace? I don't know you or how at peace you are, but it just sounds like you are very angry. Are you angry at God because the situation hasn't been fixed yet? Please don't think I am trying to make you look bad. To be honest I think most of us have been there. We see the destruction of the Church. We see Christ crucified again and again. We see loved ones break the rules and leave the Church. It is a mess. We look back through time and play the "if only" game. The hard part is is that we live in the current times and we don't really understand God's ways. So we have to pray and do penance harder than ever before.
But the Catholic way is Union with God. The Catholic way is dying to self. There is enough in us to conquer, we don't need to distract ourselves with others. And once we have become servants of God, then we will hear what God wants us to do. God will call some to war, some to take care of the sick, some to convert sinners, etc.I agree 100%. However, these beliefs do not go against confronting the false popes who have deliberately schemed to destroy the Church from within. To confront them and their ecclesiastical crimes is not merely
Someone above wrote something like: "In the past, those who falsely represented popes and preached anti Catholic doctrine were put to death."Nothing wrong with this and it should be done. But putting a bad person to death is NOT the same as wishing them to hell. You put them to death, to stop their evil acts. AT THE SAME TIME, (as the Church did in the past), while you are carrying out the death sentence, you plead with them to convert and confess. Justice and mercy work together, like Faith and reason. They are not at odds.
I often feel at peace when I imagine the most evil people who have ever lived on earth getting their just desserts in the afterlife.A desire for justice must be balanced with a desire for mercy (in this life). In the afterlife, it's 100% justice.
I believe God has fixed the problem the best he could by making sure Bergoglio is currently experiencing eternal agony. This does not make me smile or laugh but it does make me feel a sort of peace.
Nothing wrong with this and it should be done.Do you think Bergoglio should've been put to death?
I agree 100%. However, these beliefs do not go against confronting the false popes who have deliberately schemed to destroy the Church from within. To confront them and their ecclesiastical crimes is not merelyMaybe you should read some of my first posts on CathInfo. I was sad, angry, and upset. I wanted this crisis to end and I didn't think anyone was really doing anything, most people were just complaining of the situation we were in. I wanted to go to Rome and speak to the "Pope". I wanted to yell at the priests who were acting weak. I wanted to do something. I was upset at Traditionalists, because I felt they were not doing enough. The funny thing is this came across as weak and overly emotional. I felt completely misunderstood, which made me waste my time in trying to explain myself. Sorta of what I see you doing here. I was accused of not being truly Catholic. I learned that the world will not be changed by words on a Catholic forum and I guess I am just sharing that with you.
"to distract ourselves with others." If you truly believe that the Church you belong to is the One True Church and that the pope is "The Vicar of Christ on earth", and yet you also look at these critical issues as merely "distracting ourselves with others", then your attitude makes me question your sincerity of.
A desire for justice must be balanced with a desire for mercy (in this life). In the afterlife, it's 100% justice.I agree with you 100%. Thus, I REJOICE at God's JUSTICE for making sure Bergoglio eternally suffers. Knowing that Justice has been done gives me peace.
You're allowed to say --- If evil person A is in hell, then I rejoice at God's justice.
You're allowed to say --- If evil person A converted at the last minute, I rejoice at God's mercy.
What you can't say --- I hope evil person A is in hell.
That's a grave sin against charity. God sends people to hell, not us. Not the Church. We cannot wish for such.
Maybe you should read some of my first posts on CathInfo. I was sad, angry, and upset. I wanted this crisis to end and I didn't think anyone was really doing anything, most people were just complaining of the situation we were in. I wanted to go to Rome and speak to the "Pope". I wanted to yell at the priests who were acting weak. I wanted to do something. I was upset at Traditionalists, because I felt they were not doing enough. The funny thing is this came across as weak and overly emotional. I felt completely misunderstood, which made me waste my time in trying to explain myself. Sorta of what I see you doing here. I was accused of not being truly Catholic. I learned that the world will not be changed by words on a Catholic forum and I guess I am just sharing that with you.Thank you for your responses. It's all cleared up now.
On the flip side though, I guess that if we have such anger, maybe we should be allowed to express it as long as we are still internally trying to be a good Catholic. We must remember that we cannot judge the internal forum of others, because most of the time things are never what they seem.
Thus, I REJOICE at God's JUSTICE for making sure Bergoglio eternally suffers.:facepalm: You don't know that didn't convert. Which is what God wants.
Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 01:52:27 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/the-anti-false-pope-has-died/msg980914/#msg980914)Every saint given a vision of Hell was terrified by what they saw, they most likely would have died from fright if not for Divine assistance..they felt no "peace" in seeing the eternally damned and came out of the vision with an increased fervor of praying for the souls of sinners. Any trad who enjoys playing God and condemning people to Hell would change their tune very quickly if they were given a vision of Hell
I often feel at peace when I imagine the most evil people who have ever lived on earth getting their just desserts in the afterlife.
I believe God has fixed the problem the best he could by making sure Bergoglio is currently experiencing eternal agony. This does not make me smile or laugh but it does make me feel a sort of peace.
:facepalm: You don't know that didn't convert. Which is what God wants.I cannot accept the fact that he converted. If he did, then good for him but I don't buy it. Since I will never know in this life, the only way for me to gain peace concerning his death is to rejoice at God's "most likely administered" justice of Bergoglio suffering in eternal agony. It would be bring me even more peace if one day his corpse is burned on a pyre with those of the other recent false popes as the world is notified of all of their ecclesiastical crimes. Again, I don't see that happening anytime soon but, hey, we can't have everything.
Any trad who enjoys playing God and condemning people to Hell would change their tune very quickly if they were given a vision of HellI am not "playing God" because I am not saying that Bergoglio is in hell for sure. I do not know and cannot know in this life. I am not condemning people to hell. I can only hope God has administered his divine justice upon the evil false pope Bergoglio.
I cannot accept the fact that he converted. If he did, then good for him but I don't buy it.
Bergoglio is in hell with Judas, Confucius, Buddha, ghandi, Luther, mark of Ephesus, Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wojtyla, Ratzinger and anybody else who was not a member of the barque of Peter outside of which absolutely nobody is saved.Again, we don't know and can't know this for sure. I believe, however, that such a fate is perfectly reconcilable with God's Divine Justice. It's the only way I can respond to the death of the Satanic demon Bergoglio.
All these people are presumed to have not converted
I can only hope God has administered his divine justice upon the evil false pope Bergoglio.
Again, we don't know and can't know this for sure. I believe, however, that such a fate is perfectly reconcilable with God's Divine Justice. It's the only way I can respond to the death of the Satanic demon Bergoglio.The catholic response is to forgive.
What this reflects is you HOPING that he's in Hell, relishing the thought of him burninig in Hell.Well since scripture says that more people are damned than are saved (and I doubt that any truly devout Traditional Catholic can think of a recent person who lived on this earth that was more evil or even just as evil as Bergoglio), I fail to see how accepting Bergoglio being damned is somehow not reconcilable with God's Divine Justice.
Well since scripture says that more people are damned than are saved (and I doubt that any truly devout Traditional Catholic can think of a recent person who lived on this earth that was more evil or even just as evil as Bergoglio), I fail to see how accepting Bergoglio being damned is somehow not reconcilable with God's Divine Justice.Why are you so fascinated with the state of others souls? People go to Hell because they do not want God. If you find that Bergoglio is in Purgatory are you going to say to God sorry I can't be here because you allowed him to be here? Doesn't that seem silly? But that is the feeling that I get from your posts.
Isn't it puzzling how we can somehow "know" that someone is in heaven ( simply by the canonization process to sainthood) yet we cannot "know" that someone is in hell, especially when scripture says the number of the damned are greater than the number of saved?? Puzzling.
Isn't it also puzzling why we can say about someone "May God bless him" but it's somehow a blasphemy against God to say about someone "May God damn him" even though God both "blesses" and "damns"??? Puzzling.
I don't know if he is in hell. I cannot know and I do not laugh or smile at his hellish fate but it does bring a sense of peace knowing Divine Justice has been carried out (that is, if he indeed is in hell). If he is not in hell through God's Divine Justice, then it's another theological puzzle because if hell is more populated than heaven and Bergoglio isn't there, then that begs the question: who is there?
So, if Bergoglio is canonized in the future (and we know he will be), will the same posters who don't presume he is in Hell, defend his canonization as true/infallible? Or will they question his canonization? Afterall, it seems that based on their posts in this thread, God could send Bergoglio to Heaven.Ridiculous question, as the Catholic Church would never canonize a man who led such a wicked life. And the possibility of God sending Bergoglio to Heaven is not "based on posts in this thread", it is based on the Church's teaching regarding salvation. If Bergoglio repented of his sins and died in a state of grace, he will eventually attain eternal salvation. It's that simple. Unless you received private revelation from God Himself that Jorge Bergoglio has been damned, you cannot say with certainty that he is.
So, if Bergoglio is canonized in the future (and we know he will be), will the same posters who don't presume he is in Hell, defend his canonization as true/infallible? Or will they question his canonization?He will definitely be canonized in the future (just like the other satanic false popes) and you'll have some posters who will do both. The fence-sitting R&R types will question his canonization while Sedes like me will laugh that so many gutless trad lemmings will find another issue to cry about instead of standing up and saying "Bergoglio was a heretical false pope and if there is any Divine Justice, as I believe there is, then Bergoglio is experiencing his well-deserved eternal agony among the likes of Paul the Sick JP2 and The Ratzinger Rat." If anyone thinks otherwise they are part of the problem and not the solutuon.
Ridiculous question, as the Catholic Church would never canonize a man who led such a wicked life. And the possibility of God sending Bergoglio to Heaven is not "based on posts in this thread", it is based on the Church's teaching regarding salvation. If Bergoglio repented of his sins and died in a state of grace, he will eventually attain eternal salvation. It's that simple. Unless you received private revelation from God Himself that Jorge Bergoglio has been damned, you cannot say with certainty that he is.I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church has canonized people who were once wicked but repented/converted. Do you believe that Paul VI and the other Vatican II popes could have repented and died in a state of grace? Do you continue to pray for their souls? Because, it seems to me, to be consistent here, you and the others would have to believe that and tell the rest of us that we must pray for their souls too.
Why are you so fascinated with the state of others souls?This isn't a mere fascination with just one person's soul. It's confronting the justifiable fate of one of the most diabolically evil men to have ever lived on this earth: Jorge El Diablo Bergoglio.
the Catholic Church would never canonize a man who led such a wicked life.Have you already forgotten Paul VI and Jose Maria de Escriva?? :facepalm:
To show undeserved mercy to such a devil is to exhibit what Bishop Sheen rightly called "false compassion." It's not only foolish and cowardly but also evil.Here’s what you forget— God and the Church DEMAND that you pray for the repose of catholic souls. However evil they were. It’s not a choice, it’s part of our Faith.
I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church has canonized people who were once wicked but repented/converted.Yeah, people who publicly repented/converted.
Do you believe that Paul VI and the other Vatican II popes could have repented and died in a state of grace?
Do you continue to pray for their souls? Because, it seems to me, to be consistent here, you and the others would have to believe that and tell the rest of us that we must pray for their souls too.Not as often as I should, thanks for reminding me
Have you already forgotten Paul VI and Jose Maria de Escriva?? :facepalm:I said the Catholic Church
Here’s what you forget— God and the Church DEMAND that you pray for the repose of catholic souls. However evil they were. It’s not a choice, it’s part of our Faith.Exactly! The key word there is "CATHOLIC" souls. Bergoglio was not even "remotely" CATHOLIC.
The funny thing is Bergoglio seemed to give Saint Pius X a visit on April 12.And he also included this in his Easter address (just hours before his demise):
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2025-04/pope-surprise-visit-st-peters-basilica.html
And he refused the last sacrament. (Don't know if it is true or not)
https://x.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1915021713638609159 (https://x.com/hashtag/popefrancis?src=hashtag_click)
Prayer Disarms The Divine Vengeance
Finally, as St. Jerome observes, prayer disarms the anger of God. Hence, these words of God addressed to Moses: Let me alone, when Moses sought by his prayer to stay the punishments God was about to inflict on His people. Nothing is so efficacious in appeasing God, when His wrath is kindled; nothing so effectually delays or averts the punishments prepared for the wicked as the prayers of men.
The Dead
Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching. But on this subject we have said enough when explaining the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Sinners
Those who are said to sin unto death derive little advantage from prayers and supplications. It is, however, the part of Christian charity to offer up our prayers and tears for them, in order, if possible, to obtain their reconciliation with God.
Exactly! The key word there is "CATHOLIC" souls. Bergoglio was not even "remotely" CATHOLIC.He was baptized, doofus.
He was baptized, doofus.And so were Joe Biden and Nancy Peℓσѕι. That still doesn't mean they are Catholics. They do not profess the True Catholic Faith and therfore are not Catholics.
Exactly! The key word there is "CATHOLIC" souls. Bergoglio was not even "remotely" CATHOLIC.
(https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/fierypope.jpg?jpg)
It is a Big Mistake to put Pius XII
Divine Providence provides insight into the fate of the modernist popes.
The premature putrefied bodies of Pacelli and Montini, Roncalli found in a masonic, face down position in his coffin.
JPII's Vatican blessing by 160 jews, his resulting euthanasia and then this photo... all signs for those with eyes to see.
(https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/fierypope.jpg?jpg)
And so were Joe Biden and Nancy Peℓσѕι. That still doesn't mean they are Catholics. They do not profess the True Catholic Faith and therfore are not Catholics.Unfortunately, once one is baptised a Catholic, one remains canonically Catholic forever unless one formally defects from the Church.
And for centuries cardinals suspended or excommunicated have been allowed to vote in conclave.
Unfortunately, once one is baptised a Catholic, one remains canonically Catholic forever unless one formally defects from the Church.
Even the excommunicated remain canonically Catholic, otherwise they would no longer be subject to the Church's discipline.
Not centuries ... I believe it was St. Pius X who first made that stipulation. But this refers to those excommunicated by ecclesiastical law, not those who are outside the Church by divine law, i.e. heresy, schism, etc. There's no penalty that could be lifted that would suddenly render them members of the Church.I suspect it does actually. The footnote in Pius XII's constitution references legislation of Clement V and Pius IV:
But this begs the question, what is the Novus Ordo church?
Poll: What is the "Novus Ordo church"? - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info
(https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/what-is-the-'novus-ordo-church'/)If it isn't the Catholic Church (as over 70% of the respondents of the above poll claim) then those who belong to it have defected (if not formally than materially).
And this then leads to the next question,
Poll: Can one belong to another faith/religion and still be Catholic? - page 1 - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info
O (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/poll-can-one-belong-to-another-faithreligion-and-still-be-catholic/)ver 90% say - No, you cannot belong to another religion/sect and remain a Catholic.
While one who has been validly baptized would canonically fall under the pope's jurisdiction and the laws of the Church, and even defection would not erase this mark/claim upon their soul, they - by belonging to the false religion/sect of the Novus Ordo Church - would NOT be considered members.
If the N.O. church is synonymous with the Catholic Church (same entity), then all trads are making a HUGE fuss over nothing, and it is rather they who have schismed away and are making so many little sects.
Additionally, could you please point me to where the Church makes a distinction between a "moral heretic" and a "doctrinal" one? While one may be a moral reprobate, if that reprobate were to deny that condemned sinful acts were no sin at all - that would make such a one a "doctrinal" heretic, no?
those who belong to it have defected (if not formally than materially)
I suspect it does actually. The footnote in Pius XII's constitution references legislation of Clement V and Pius IV:
"[27 (https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-xii_apc_19451208_vacantis-apostolicae-sedis.html#_ftnref27)] Clem. V, cap. 2, Ne Romani, § 4, de elect., I, 3 in Clem.; Pii IV Const. In eligendis, § 29; Greg. XV Const. Aeterni Patris, § 22."
I take your point about Divine law but the question then is who decides its application sede vacante?
None of the cardinals may in any way, or by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the supreme pontiff. We hereby suspend such censures solely for the purposes of the said election; at other times they are to remain in vigor.
It is a Big Mistake to put Pius XII
w/ the other anti-popes . :confused:
Cite these catechisms please.
You and every other vocal member here holds that the Conciliar Church is substantially different. But if it is only accidentally so, then we are all in deep sh*t.
So, their error is subjective, but objectively it isn't the Catholic Church...
You say it is "material error" only. That is a convenient claim, but it does not make it objectively so,
But during our time, if one in the Conciliar Church THINKS they have the correct formal motive it matters little, because OBJECTIVELY they are spiritually united to the heretics who teach/hold to the heresies of Vatican II. This would effectively nullify their subjective intentions, because they implicate themselves in the heresies of the false hierarchy by adhering to them as their formal rule of faith (even if materially they err about who their legitimate superiors are).
Then, you believe it doesn't really matter if one is in the Conciliar Church or not, because anyone who is in it and refuses to recognize the apostasy could just as easily claim the same.It does matter...to God...who can read all hearts.
"The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
Are material heretics members of the Church? Tell us why Van Noort and company are wrong...
Gee thanks... Still not finding it, could you at least drop a name?
Gee thanks... Still not finding it, could you at least drop a name?
Gee thanks... Still not finding it, could you at least drop a name?Here's one example, J: https://archive.org/details/doctrinalcatechi01keen/page/305/mode/1up?q=infallible (https://archive.org/details/doctrinalcatechi01keen/page/305/mode/1up?q=infallible)
He gives sufficient grace for them to see - if they want to. Anyone who has eyes to see, only has them because of the grace of God - not any effort, or intelligence on their part. Even the efforts to see and capacity to learn are gifts from God.He will give them sufficient graces to see, before they die. But that doesn't mean they had necessary graces yesterday, or today, or tomorrow.
Your "good heart" claims and the definitive pronouncement that "God will rescue them before their death" is beyond the capacity of anyone to know and intrudes into those "hidden things" that only God can read.Yeah, that's exactly the point. Only God knows who is saved or not. You keep trying to measure something that is immeasureable.
No, trads are not better off than the "good-hearted" Novus Ordites who err in good faith. If we believe what has happened, we believe it because we MUST. Otherwise, it is just an extra "merit" point and not really relevant to salvation.Some people, God allows to err in good faith for most of their life (for reasons only known to Him). Then, they convert late. You're trying to judge people prematurely.
Do you aim to deceive me?The citation was offered simply to be helpful. You may accept or reject that as being my motivation but, either way, I am not interested in being pulled into your disequilibrium.
The question above is under the section titled:
(https://i.imgur.com/mAj8NX4.jpeg)
"TEMPORAL MATTERS" being the key.
Your citation is bunk. It does not lend credence to Lad's claim that "catechisms before Vatican I denied papal infallibility". Because, as we all know, the pope, is not infallible in temporal matters. Keenan is addressing temporal matters NOT doctrinal or moral matters.Johannes thank you for saying the bold, but don't you think you should lead with that. If we just keep assuming the worst in people, then we will get the worst in people.
What you call "disequilibrium" I call intellectual honesty.
If you gave me the citation thinking it proved his point as an honest mistake - np.
I didn't "assume the worst". I simply asked. It was a bit suspicious to me that she omitted the title of the section that is immediately above the quote that supposedly "proved" Lad's claim. She could have easily added that. There were grounds for my suspicion. I didn't accuse, I asked - there is a difference. Then again, I happily grant that she didn't see that and it was an honest mistake.She is a he. ;) ...and if you click the original link he provided, you would see that the title is not omitted. I suspect this was an honest mistake.
Yes, many Irish catechisms and Catholic writings before Vatican I (1869-1870), which formally defined papal infallibility, either explicitly denied it or treated it as a matter of debate rather than a settled doctrine. This was particularly true in England and Ireland, where Gallican (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&cs=0&sca_esv=fa34d6276ba07f63&sxsrf=AHTn8zrAuaJJhE6wUhVhWteLUpMFTuVpGg%3A1745617633197&q=Gallican&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirnau3lPSMAxVGF1kFHa0cKKcQxccNegQIAhAE&mstk=AUtExfA47d0IDbYdCtXQzulI_hUB3edOe541Z-29-p1ORDUa0wHxGiktN4Afby2zWk299pFuvwJJC0CPLNTSDVNNPRNTr2t-_uR7dFKe6oCENTfoER-sl1pMTS-2ozg9Mt9d8gYhIqS1c94yYdjcM4eEVvkqYfRV7ISF6CQ-3-Uv3FaduC2x48HsnbHR5KbnIvOGmx7yoUKj4PGzkaVO9pLJKhOrE97xiaiHGV36Qz3oNzefxpzUs9akhzh_SCFxsm5bxcnRbldDZCdvs4UdCcYpNkZJ&csui=3) (or Gallicanism (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&cs=0&sca_esv=fa34d6276ba07f63&sxsrf=AHTn8zrAuaJJhE6wUhVhWteLUpMFTuVpGg%3A1745617633197&q=Gallicanism&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirnau3lPSMAxVGF1kFHa0cKKcQxccNegQIAhAF&mstk=AUtExfA47d0IDbYdCtXQzulI_hUB3edOe541Z-29-p1ORDUa0wHxGiktN4Afby2zWk299pFuvwJJC0CPLNTSDVNNPRNTr2t-_uR7dFKe6oCENTfoER-sl1pMTS-2ozg9Mt9d8gYhIqS1c94yYdjcM4eEVvkqYfRV7ISF6CQ-3-Uv3FaduC2x48HsnbHR5KbnIvOGmx7yoUKj4PGzkaVO9pLJKhOrE97xiaiHGV36Qz3oNzefxpzUs9akhzh_SCFxsm5bxcnRbldDZCdvs4UdCcYpNkZJ&csui=3)) ideas, which emphasized the authority of General Councils and bishops over the Pope, were prevalent.
Here's a more detailed explanation:In summary, prior to Vatican I, many Irish catechisms and writings reflected a diverse range of views on papal authority, with some explicitly denying or questioning papal infallibility. The formal definition of papal infallibility at Vatican I was a significant development that brought the issue to the forefront and led to continued discussion and debate within the Catholic Church and beyond.
- Gallicanism (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&cs=0&sca_esv=fa34d6276ba07f63&sxsrf=AHTn8zrAuaJJhE6wUhVhWteLUpMFTuVpGg%3A1745617633197&q=Gallicanism&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirnau3lPSMAxVGF1kFHa0cKKcQxccNegQIDBAE&mstk=AUtExfA47d0IDbYdCtXQzulI_hUB3edOe541Z-29-p1ORDUa0wHxGiktN4Afby2zWk299pFuvwJJC0CPLNTSDVNNPRNTr2t-_uR7dFKe6oCENTfoER-sl1pMTS-2ozg9Mt9d8gYhIqS1c94yYdjcM4eEVvkqYfRV7ISF6CQ-3-Uv3FaduC2x48HsnbHR5KbnIvOGmx7yoUKj4PGzkaVO9pLJKhOrE97xiaiHGV36Qz3oNzefxpzUs9akhzh_SCFxsm5bxcnRbldDZCdvs4UdCcYpNkZJ&csui=3):
This theological perspective, common in some parts of Europe, emphasized the authority of General Councils and local bishops over the Pope in matters of faith and governance. It was not universally shared across all Catholic regions, and it was particularly associated with France and regions influenced by Gallican traditions.- Prior to Vatican I:
Before the formal definition of papal infallibility at Vatican I, there was a range of views within the Catholic Church on the extent and nature of papal authority, including whether the Pope's pronouncements were infallible. Many theologians and scholars, especially in England and Ireland, questioned the doctrine of papal infallibility, viewing it as an interpretation that was not universally accepted within the Catholic faith.- Irish Catechisms:
Many Irish catechisms before Vatican I reflected these views, often presenting papal authority in a way that did not explicitly endorse the doctrine of infallibility or treated it as a matter of ongoing debate within the Church. Some catechisms even explicitly denied or questioned the infallibility of the Pope's pronouncements.- Examples from Ireland:
For example, Bishop Baine stated in 1822, "In England and Ireland I do not believe that any Catholic maintains the Infallibility of the Pope". Additionally, Professor Delahogue (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&cs=0&sca_esv=fa34d6276ba07f63&sxsrf=AHTn8zrAuaJJhE6wUhVhWteLUpMFTuVpGg%3A1745617633197&q=Professor+Delahogue&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirnau3lPSMAxVGF1kFHa0cKKcQxccNegQIDhAG&mstk=AUtExfA47d0IDbYdCtXQzulI_hUB3edOe541Z-29-p1ORDUa0wHxGiktN4Afby2zWk299pFuvwJJC0CPLNTSDVNNPRNTr2t-_uR7dFKe6oCENTfoER-sl1pMTS-2ozg9Mt9d8gYhIqS1c94yYdjcM4eEVvkqYfRV7ISF6CQ-3-Uv3FaduC2x48HsnbHR5KbnIvOGmx7yoUKj4PGzkaVO9pLJKhOrE97xiaiHGV36Qz3oNzefxpzUs9akhzh_SCFxsm5bxcnRbldDZCdvs4UdCcYpNkZJ&csui=3), in his 1829 work "On the Church," stated that the doctrine of papal infallibility could be denied without loss of faith or risk of heresy. Berrington and Kirk's 1830 Faith of Catholics also stated that papal decrees did not obligate interior assent if not derived from a General Council or general acceptance of the Church.- Vatican I:
The First Vatican Council, convened in 1869-1870, formally defined the doctrine of papal infallibility, stating that the Pope, when speaking ex cathedra (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&cs=0&sca_esv=fa34d6276ba07f63&sxsrf=AHTn8zrAuaJJhE6wUhVhWteLUpMFTuVpGg%3A1745617633197&q=ex+cathedra&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirnau3lPSMAxVGF1kFHa0cKKcQxccNegQIDRAF&mstk=AUtExfA47d0IDbYdCtXQzulI_hUB3edOe541Z-29-p1ORDUa0wHxGiktN4Afby2zWk299pFuvwJJC0CPLNTSDVNNPRNTr2t-_uR7dFKe6oCENTfoER-sl1pMTS-2ozg9Mt9d8gYhIqS1c94yYdjcM4eEVvkqYfRV7ISF6CQ-3-Uv3FaduC2x48HsnbHR5KbnIvOGmx7yoUKj4PGzkaVO9pLJKhOrE97xiaiHGV36Qz3oNzefxpzUs9akhzh_SCFxsm5bxcnRbldDZCdvs4UdCcYpNkZJ&csui=3) (from the chair of Peter), is preserved from error in matters of faith and morals. This definition was not universally accepted at the time, and it led to the formation of the Old Catholic Church (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&cs=0&sca_esv=fa34d6276ba07f63&sxsrf=AHTn8zrAuaJJhE6wUhVhWteLUpMFTuVpGg%3A1745617633197&q=Old+Catholic+Church&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirnau3lPSMAxVGF1kFHa0cKKcQxccNegQIDRAH&mstk=AUtExfA47d0IDbYdCtXQzulI_hUB3edOe541Z-29-p1ORDUa0wHxGiktN4Afby2zWk299pFuvwJJC0CPLNTSDVNNPRNTr2t-_uR7dFKe6oCENTfoER-sl1pMTS-2ozg9Mt9d8gYhIqS1c94yYdjcM4eEVvkqYfRV7ISF6CQ-3-Uv3FaduC2x48HsnbHR5KbnIvOGmx7yoUKj4PGzkaVO9pLJKhOrE97xiaiHGV36Qz3oNzefxpzUs9akhzh_SCFxsm5bxcnRbldDZCdvs4UdCcYpNkZJ&csui=3) by those who rejected the dogma.
The lack of charity is scandalous. Again, I say, if someone goes to hell, then the devil wins and God loses. Some of you act as if the Church/God wins when sinners go to hell; it's the opposite. You people need a reality check. This is not some sport-game or politics - people going to hell is serious business. God is not happy. Our Lady is not happy. But some of you seem to be? :facepalm:You are either retarded or a severely duplicitous worm. God and the Church don't lose when a person goes to hell. God's Justice, by its very nature, is a perpetual win for eternity. You either reject ontological reality or you're severely limited in the cognitive realm.