Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Anti False Pope Has Died  (Read 7438 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46007
  • Reputation: +27091/-5007
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2025, 09:45:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But this begs the question, what is the Novus Ordo church?

    Poll: What is the "Novus Ordo church"? - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info

    If it isn't the Catholic Church (as over 70% of the respondents of the above poll claim) then those who belong to it have defected (if not formally than materially).

    And this then leads to the next question,

    Poll: Can one belong to another faith/religion and still be Catholic? - page 1 - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info

    O
    ver 90% say - No, you cannot belong to another religion/sect and remain a Catholic.

    While one who has been validly baptized would canonically fall under the pope's jurisdiction and the laws of the Church, and even defection would not erase this mark/claim upon their soul, they - by belonging to the false religion/sect of the Novus Ordo Church - would NOT be considered members.

    If the N.O. church is synonymous with the Catholic Church (same entity), then all trads are making a HUGE fuss over nothing, and it is rather they who have schismed away and are making so many little sects.

    Additionally, could you please point me to where the Church makes a distinction between a "moral heretic" and a "doctrinal" one? While one may be a moral reprobate, if that reprobate were to deny that condemned sinful acts were no sin at all - that would make such a one a "doctrinal" heretic, no?

    You answered your own question with this ...
    Quote
    those who belong to it have defected (if not formally than materially)

    What distinguishes the Conciliar Church from other schismatic sects is that the latter have FORMALLY split off from the Church and the Church has declared them to be formally separated from the Church.  So apart from some incredibly gross ignorance, it's very difficult to by only materially united to these schismatic / heretical Churches, barring, for instance, someone who thinks Orthodox churches are Eastern Rite Catholic and so goes there.

    But the Conciliar Church CLAIMS to be Catholic and many of those who adhere to it do so precisely because they THINK it's the Catholic Church, leaving them in material error only.  It's like during the Great Western schism where even those who adhere to the Antipope(s) did so precisely because they thought they were the Catholic pope, and therefore still had the correct formal motive, despite their ignorance of fact.

    So that's the fomral / material aspect, and it's quite analogous to the following scenario.  Many Catholics rejected the notion of papal infallibility before Vatican I, even a few catechisms.  Now, papal infallibility was always a dogma, since nothing new has been revealed since the death of the last Apostle.  So those who denied papal infallibility before Vatican I still adhered to a proposition that was objectively heretical, but they were not formal heretics ... until the Church defined it with sufficient clarity that there could be no more excuse.

    In terms of the specific errors taught by the Conciliar Church, those who accept them do so thinking that they can be reconciled with Tradition (and therefore are not heretical) ... even if they're wrong.  If they knew for sure they are heretical, they would reject them.  In other cases, they'll say that, yes, it's an error, and so they don't adhere to the error, but think it wasn't in the scope of papal infallibility and therefore needs to be corrected (e.g. Schneider and +Fellay).

    Considered objectively, however, whther the Conciliar Church is substantially different than the Catholic Church is what's disputed among various factions.  Many Traditional Catholics (especially the SVs) and some R&R (Resistance) hold that the Conciliar Church is substantially different from the Catholic Church ... albeit differing in terms of what the implications of that observation are.

    Meanwhile, you have some groups, like the Ecclesia Dei groups, FSSP, ICK, etc. who claim that the Conciliar Church is substantially the same but has deviated accidentally from Tradition in some ways, or at least the various "implementations" of Vatican II have ... and that they need to be tweaked or course-corrected, and then all will be well (as per an Athanaius Schneider or more recently Bishop Fellay).


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #106 on: April 25, 2025, 10:01:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I suspect it does actually.  The footnote in Pius XII's constitution references legislation of Clement V and Pius IV:

    "[27] Clem. V, cap. 2, Ne Romani, § 4, de elect., I, 3 in Clem.; Pii IV Const. In eligendis, § 29; Greg. XV Const. Aeterni Patris, § 22."

    I take your point about Divine law but the question then is who decides its application sede vacante?


    Who decides is a separate question, and it's what is being debated, but it can't be swept under the rug by appealing to the papal legislation.

    Pius XII (VAS 34):
    Quote
    None of the cardinals may in any way, or by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, or interdict whatsoever, or of any other ecclesiastical impediment, be excluded from the active and passive election of the supreme pontiff. We hereby suspend such censures solely for the purposes of the said election; at other times they are to remain in vigor.

    Intent of this legislation is to prevent the chaos that would ensue if it had been discovered later that, oh, BTW, this Pope had incurred ipso facto excommunication for, say, joining the Masons or striking a cleric.  It's and extension to ecclesiastical law of the same argument that's made against OCCULT heretics losing membership (and papal authority).

    This legislation really doesn't address the core point of contention.




    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9222
    • Reputation: +9060/-870
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #107 on: April 25, 2025, 11:01:12 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is a Big Mistake to put Pius XII
    w/ the other anti-popes . :confused:

    Like your defense of Card. Rampolla, do you think he’s chillin now, with the Marranos he blessed and invited into the Church (Bugnini & Escriva) ?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #108 on: April 25, 2025, 11:23:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Cite these catechisms please.

    Just Google it up yourself ... not that difficult to find.

    Use the term:  "irish catechisms before vatican i denied papal infallibility"

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #109 on: April 25, 2025, 11:24:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You and every other vocal member here holds that the Conciliar Church is substantially different. But if it is only accidentally so, then we are all in deep sh*t.

    Well, I believe that God would show mercy on those who are mistaken in their assessment of the situation due to the extreme confusion of these days.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #110 on: April 25, 2025, 11:26:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, their error is subjective, but objectively it isn't the Catholic Church...

    You say it is "material error" only. That is a convenient claim, but it does not make it objectively so, 

    I never said it is material error in every case, just that it easily can be.  95% of Novus Ordites by their own polls deny one well-known dogma of the Church or another.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #111 on: April 25, 2025, 11:33:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But during our time, if one in the Conciliar Church THINKS they have the correct formal motive it matters little, because OBJECTIVELY they are spiritually united to the heretics who teach/hold to the heresies of Vatican II. This would effectively nullify their subjective intentions, because they implicate themselves in the heresies of the false hierarchy by adhering to them as their formal rule of faith (even if materially they err about who their legitimate superiors are).

    :facepalm: ... you're pulling things out of your posterior, making things up that sound good because you're obviously moved by a bitter zeal against the Novus Ordites and your pea brain cannot make these distinctions that every single theologian ever has made, between formal error and material.  What is this insane babbling about being "spiritually united to the heretics" ... just because you say they are?  You're :spiritually" united with the heretics (whater that means, since you made that up) if you have heretical intent, namely, if you adhere to a heretical doctrine knowing that the Church has condemned it as heretical.  There are some in the Conciliar Church, the conservative types, who adhere to certain errors only BECAUSE they think it was taught by the Church, and that is the correct formal motive of faith.

    No matter how many different terms you pull out of thin air or your posterior because you don't want this to be true due to your bitter-zeal contempt for the Conciliar Church, it doesn't make it any less true.

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11945
    • Reputation: +7506/-2250
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #112 on: April 25, 2025, 11:45:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Then, you believe it doesn't really matter if one is in the Conciliar Church or not, because anyone who is in it and refuses to recognize the apostasy could just as easily claim the same.

    "The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
    It does matter...to God...who can read all hearts.

    Those who recognize the V2 apostasy and tough it out as Trads, will be rewarded greatly in heaven.  Those who are "conservative novus ordoites" and barely make it to heaven will receive a lesser reward.

    This all goes back to the infallible doctrine that GOD WILLS THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND.  He is not a "gotcha" God.  He knows the crazy times we live in.  For some who are still "conservative novus ordoites" He leaves them in that state, for reasons unknown to us (maybe so they can be a good example to wayward catholics that we Trads could never influence or cross paths with).

    God knew from all eternity what, how and whom this crisis would affect.  He knows it today, in every minute detail, of every person's life who still lives on earth.  He is all-knowing and all-powerful.  He reads all hearts and wishes that all men would be saved.

    God will not be mocked, nor can he be deceived.  Rest assured that those who deserve punishment will receive it.  And those who aren't where we are (i.e. not Trads), but who have a good heart, God will rescue by grace, before their death.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #113 on: April 25, 2025, 12:06:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are material heretics members of the Church? Tell us why Van Noort and company are wrong...

    While there's some dispute over treams (as some theologians hold that due to the etymology of the term, those in material error only should not be called "heretics" at all), absolutely material "heretics" are members of the Church.

    You're the one who's wrong because you don't understand the terms, conflating manifest heresy with material heresy ... and additional confusion in the terms was added by those who tried to re-define "material" heresy as referring to those who are are "sincere" in their heresy, but the term has nothing to do with sincerity.  In theory, I could be 100% sincere, but still be a formal heretic.

    Formal refers to the WHY of faith.
    Material refers to the WHAT of faith.

    So, the correct Catholic formal motive of faith is we believe what we believe because it was revealed by God and then proposed to us as revealed by His Church.  In other words, Catholics believe what they believe because the Church taught it.  That's their motive for belief, i.e. the formal motive of faith.

    There are many in the Conciliar Church who intend, as with the act of faith, to believe everything that the Church teaches, but are simply mistaken about what the Church teaches.  As St. Augustine explained, the litmus test for these is that as soon as you tell them what the Church teaches and let them know they're mistaken, they immediately let go of their erroneous belief with the attitude of, "Oh, I'm sorry.  I didn't know that's what the Church actually taught."  Individuals such as these remain members of the Church, as they clearly lack pertinacious adherence to a heresy despite knowing that the Church teaches otherwise.

    Conversely, I could in theory have picked up my Bible and developed a doctrine or theology that's 100% identical to what the Church teaches, point by point ... but, despite believing every single WHAT that the Church teaches, I am a formal heretic because I do not have the correct WHY of the belief.  I didn't believe it due to the authority of the Church teaching, but because I came up with it on my own.

    What you're trying to appeal to incorrectly is an incorrect notion of what MANIFEST heresy refers to, not material heresy.  Even for Manifest Heresy, a pertinacity must be demonstrated.  Otherwise, with a simplistic explanation, a mere typo or a slip of the tongue or an episode of brain fogt while speaking would cause someone to forfeit their membership in the Church.  Of course that's absurd despite the fact that you had a heretical proposition publicly manifested.  You must also have pertinacity to adhere to something that's contrary to the Church's teaching.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #114 on: April 25, 2025, 12:07:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Gee thanks... Still not finding it, could you at least drop a name?

    It's right there.  If you don't see it because you don't want to.  Once the search results come up, click a few of the links.  There's a Wikipedia article even that gives you names, quotations, etc.  I'm not going to hand-hold you through it.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46007
    • Reputation: +27091/-5007
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #115 on: April 25, 2025, 12:08:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Gee thanks... Still not finding it, could you at least drop a name?

    And don't use G**, since it's a blasphemous butchering of Our Lord's name.


    Offline Emile

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2435
    • Reputation: +1863/-135
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #116 on: April 25, 2025, 12:17:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Gee thanks... Still not finding it, could you at least drop a name?
    Here's one example, J: https://archive.org/details/doctrinalcatechi01keen/page/305/mode/1up?q=infallible

    I hold it true, whate'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost
    Than never to have loved at all.
    (In Memoriam A. H. H., 27.13-17 Alfred, Lord Tennyson)

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11945
    • Reputation: +7506/-2250
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #117 on: April 25, 2025, 01:16:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • He gives sufficient grace for them to see - if they want to. Anyone who has eyes to see, only has them because of the grace of God - not any effort, or intelligence on their part. Even the efforts to see and capacity to learn are gifts from God.
    He will give them sufficient graces to see, before they die.  But that doesn't mean they had necessary graces yesterday, or today, or tomorrow.

    Life is a spiritual journey.  Not everyone is a cradle-catholic.  Not everyone's journey is to convert all-at-once.  Sometimes God gives graces later in life.

    You can't judge someone until you see their full life.  Your error is in judging people prematurely.

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11945
    • Reputation: +7506/-2250
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #118 on: April 25, 2025, 01:20:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Your "good heart" claims and the definitive pronouncement that "God will rescue them before their death" is beyond the capacity of anyone to know and intrudes into those "hidden things" that only God can read.
    Yeah, that's exactly the point.  Only God knows who is saved or not.  You keep trying to measure something that is immeasureable.

    Quote
    No, trads are not better off than the "good-hearted" Novus Ordites who err in good faith. If we believe what has happened, we believe it because we MUST. Otherwise, it is just an extra "merit" point and not really relevant to salvation.
    Some people, God allows to err in good faith for most of their life (for reasons only known to Him).  Then, they convert late.  You're trying to judge people prematurely.


    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9222
    • Reputation: +9060/-870
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Anti False Pope Has Died
    « Reply #119 on: April 25, 2025, 01:42:07 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi