Author Topic: "Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner) (Read 220 times)

OABrownson1876 · « **on:** March 15, 2026, 08:48:01 PM »

Some of you probably have the same Catholic Bible as I, the Challoner edition, sold by TAN Books. Exodus 20:13 reads "Thou shalt not kill," which is not a correct translation at all. The original Douay Rheims which I have a reprint of, says "Thou shalt not murder." In logic we say, "All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder." Murder is the unjust taking of an innocent life. Capital punishment is killing, but it is not murder. Do not fall into the trap by saying to yourself, "Oh, it is pre-Vatican II, or Saint so and so said it." Bishop Challoner died in the 1700's. Let that sink in.

I have the 1635 Catholic Douay and it clearly says "Thou shalt not murder." If anyone finds an original Challoner edition from the 1700's please post it up. Grok said that the Douay Rheims said, "Thou shalt not kill," and I said absolutely not! I had to correct Grok, and here is the post: https://x.com/lets_go_Bryan/status/2033346124119986520?s=20

Giovanni Berto · « **Reply #1 on:** March 15, 2026, 09:48:11 PM »

I agree that "murder" is a better translation, but the Vulgate uses the word "occides", which seems to have a not so exact meaning:

https://vulgate.org/ot/exodus_20.htm

Quote

13 non occides

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/occido#Latin

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occidō (present infinitive occidere, perfect active occidī, supine occāsum); third conjugation, no passive

(intransitive) to fall down
Synonyms: corruō, cadō, incidō, incurrō, accidō, ruō
(intransitive, of heavenly bodies) to go down, set
(intransitive) to perish, die, pass away
(intransitive) to be lost, undone or ruined

https://www.latin-is-simple.com/en/vocabulary/verb/5130/

Quote

occido, occidis, occidere, occidi, occisum

Translations
to kill
to murder
to slaughter
to slay
to cut/knock down
to weary

Lazarus · « **Reply #2 on:** March 15, 2026, 10:19:27 PM »

The Vulgata contains many expressions that were translated literally from Hebrew. Without an understanding of Hebrew and without the comments of Church fathers, it would be difficult for a layman to understand the words written in the Bible.

I personally use the Abbé Glaire translation of the Vulgata, which is a French translation of the Vulgata that was officially approved of by the Church, directly with the commentaries that explain every strange expression of hebraic origin that can be found within.

Do you also have the Church fathers commentaries, or is your Bible devoid of those? I don't know which Bible edition English speakers use.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 15, 2026, 11:07:53 PM »

True, the Latin verb is occido, from the verb "cado," which literally means to "cut off or to fall away from." The word "cadaver" is that which has been cut away from the soul. But the Douay translation was the first English translation, 1635, and there were clearly two words in English, "kill" and "murder," and the Fathers at the college of Douay in France chose the word "murder" when they rendered the English New Testament. I do not think it a small thing for some English bishop to come along two hundred years later and decide to swap out the word "murder" with the word "kill."

Maria Dolorosa · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2026, 10:34:21 PM »

From St. Thomas Aquinas' Treatise on the Commandments:

Chapter X. Of the Fifth Commandment of the Law

‘Thou shalt not kill' (Ex. xx. 13). By the divine law which sets charity in order in us, with regard to the love of God and our neighbour, we are commanded not only to do right, but also to keep from wrong. Now the greatest evil that we can bring on our neighbour is death. We have therefore the command, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’

I. Men have erred about this commandment in three ways...

2. Punishment of death. Some have said that by this command it is forbidden to kill a man in any way whatever. As a consequence, they have taught that judges who condemn men to death by the law are murderers. St. Augustin answers them, saying that God did not take away from Himself the power of life and death by this command; for He says (Deut. xxxii. 39), 'I will kill and I will make to live.' It is lawful, therefore, to slay when the slaying is by the command of God; for then it is God who does it, every law being a command of God. Thus God says (Prov. viii. 14-16), 'Counsel and equity are mine, prudence is mine, strength is mine. By Me kings reign and lawgivers decree just things. By Me princes rule and the mighty decree justice.' St. Paul also says (Rom. xiii. 4), 'If thou do that which is evil, fear; for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.' An express command was given by God to Moses (Ex. xxii. 18): 'Wizards thou shalt not suffer to live.' Again (v. 20), 'He that sacrificeth to gods, save only to the Lord, shall be put to death.' What, therefore, is lawful for God Himself is lawful for God's ministers, by God's command. Now since God is the maker of the law, it is plain that He does not sin when, because of sin, He inflicts the punishment of death; for as St. Paul says (Rom. vi. 23), 'The wages of sin is death.' Therefore it follows that God's ministers do not sin in like cases. The meaning of the commandment, then, is, Thou shalt not kill on thy own authority.

https://archive.org/details/AquinasOnTheCommandments/page/n187/mode/2up

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: "Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner) (Read 220 times)

OABrownson1876

"Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner)

Giovanni Berto

Re: "Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner)

Lazarus

Re: "Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner)

OABrownson1876

Re: "Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner)

Maria Dolorosa

Re: "Thou shalt not murder" (Douay Rheims) vs. "kill" (Challoner)