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Offline Belloc

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« on: November 24, 2009, 11:30:56 AM »
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  • Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 10:39:53 PM »
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  • Belloc,

    Is your priority the Faith, or politics?

    It's an honest question. Why do you care to argue with a bunch of non-Catholics whose entire worldview is shaped by the cold, hard reality of economic, military, and political considerations? Do you hope to convert them? Convert them to what? Distributism or Catholicism? Don't you see that the Church's social teachings are meaningless outside of their context of the Faith?

    When St. Paul preached to the Gentiles, he did not discuss with them the politics and economics of the Roman Empire. He preached Christ crucified. Trying to transform diehard "free-market" capitalist Republican America-firsters into proponents of the teachings of Rerum Novarum without first converting them to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith is putting the cart before the horse.

    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline Catholic Samurai

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    « Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 11:44:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Belloc,

    Is your priority the Faith, or politics?

    It's an honest question. Why do you care to argue with a bunch of non-Catholics whose entire worldview is shaped by the cold, hard reality of economic, military, and political considerations? Do you hope to convert them? Convert them to what? Distributism or Catholicism? Don't you see that the Church's social teachings are meaningless outside of their context of the Faith?

    When St. Paul preached to the Gentiles, he did not discuss with them the politics and economics of the Roman Empire. He preached Christ crucified. Trying to transform diehard "free-market" capitalist Republican America-firsters into proponents of the teachings of Rerum Novarum without first converting them to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith is putting the cart before the horse.



    Are you willing to throw away your voting liscense in order to devote more time to preaching Catholicism?
    "Louvada Siesa O' Sanctisimo Sacramento!"~warcry of the Amakusa/Shimabara rebels

    "We must risk something for God!"~Hernan Cortes


    TEJANO AND PROUD!

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 01:19:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic Samurai

    Are you willing to throw away your voting liscense in order to devote more time to preaching Catholicism?


    I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here (I've never heard of a voting license) but if I had to exchange the right to vote for the right to speak about the Faith, sure, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 02:06:13 AM »
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  • Belloc, I'd like to apologize if the tone of my first post on this thread was a little crude. I guess you're just hoping that maybe someone will be exposed to your ideas, possibly for the first time in his life, and will have his curiosity piqued just enough to want to investigate more.

    I think you would agree that conservatives are just liberals with an affection for guns and SUV's, and a few remnants of Christian morality (no abortion or gαy marriage). Arguing with them on the issues one by one will not get at the root of the problem, i.e. lack of membership in the One True Faith and loyalty to the Kingship of Christ.

    Many many years ago in a faraway land I knew a man who dressed in raggedy clothes, lived outdoors, wore a crown of rose thorns and dragged a big wooden cross around behind him all day. He would stop and talk to anyone who cared to listen to him and tell that person to repent and go to confession and amend his life. (There is an interesting story behind why he started doing that but I don't feel like typing it all out right now.) Anyway, he reached more people doing that than any dozen crappy politicians or motormouthed talk-show hosts.

    Sometimes I think I'd like to trade places with that guy...
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 07:29:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Belloc,

    Is your priority the Faith, or politics?

    It's an honest question. Why do you care to argue with a bunch of non-Catholics whose entire worldview is shaped by the cold, hard reality of economic, military, and political considerations? Do you hope to convert them? Convert them to what? Distributism or Catholicism? Don't you see that the Church's social teachings are meaningless outside of their context of the Faith?

    When St. Paul preached to the Gentiles, he did not discuss with them the politics and economics of the Roman Empire. He preached Christ crucified. Trying to transform diehard "free-market" capitalist Republican America-firsters into proponents of the teachings of Rerum Novarum without first converting them to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith is putting the cart before the horse.



    this is a reposted article-it was written by John Lofton, so, I was not arguing with anyone......I reposted it as he made some good points..before venting on me, maybe you should taken a deep breath, looked at the "by___" part and the link for said article I posted.......again, Lofton a Calvinist, does make some good points and any wrench thrown at Neocons is a cheer from me, the Freepers are a nasty idolic bunch
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 07:30:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Quote from: Catholic Samurai

    Are you willing to throw away your voting liscense in order to devote more time to preaching Catholicism?


    I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here (I've never heard of a voting license) but if I had to exchange the right to vote for the right to speak about the Faith, sure, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


    No you are not, because you missed the whole point-matter of fact, you could not even see who wrote the article, nor the source cited,etc......

    so, please do not try to evangelize until you can read the English language......
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 07:31:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Belloc, I'd like to apologize if the tone of my first post on this thread was a little crude. I guess you're just hoping that maybe someone will be exposed to your ideas, possibly for the first time in his life, and will have his curiosity piqued just enough to want to investigate more.

    I think you would agree that conservatives are just liberals with an affection for guns and SUV's, and a few remnants of Christian morality (no abortion or gαy marriage). Arguing with them on the issues one by one will not get at the root of the problem, i.e. lack of membership in the One True Faith and loyalty to the Kingship of Christ.

    Many many years ago in a faraway land I knew a man who dressed in raggedy clothes, lived outdoors, wore a crown of rose thorns and dragged a big wooden cross around behind him all day. He would stop and talk to anyone who cared to listen to him and tell that person to repent and go to confession and amend his life. (There is an interesting story behind why he started doing that but I don't feel like typing it all out right now.) Anyway, he reached more people doing that than any dozen crappy politicians or motormouthed talk-show hosts.

    Sometimes I think I'd like to trade places with that guy...


    Good deal then..., I take back my chastisements in past responses....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #8 on: November 25, 2009, 08:36:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Quote from: Catholic Samurai

    Are you willing to throw away your voting liscense in order to devote more time to preaching Catholicism?


    I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here (I've never heard of a voting license) but if I had to exchange the right to vote for the right to speak about the Faith, sure, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


    why would we assume it was either or.for now, we have both.....at time is coming soon when voting and public participation will be ended....best to get out there, now in the public arena and push while we can, planting seeds and conversions....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 08:41:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc

    No you are not, because you missed the whole point-matter of fact, you could not even see who wrote the article, nor the source cited,etc......

    so, please do not try to evangelize until you can read the English language......


    My my! How quickly you take offense, and become hostile.

    Belloc, have you ever considered how many readers of this forum and FE you have undoubtedly driven away from Chesterton and Belloc's ideas?

    I imagine you use the same pompous and obsessive rhetoric on other forums as well. Your lack of spelling skills, knowledge of basic capitalization and punctuation, and sentence structure doesn't help either. It gives the impression of a sloppy thinker in a big hurry to make his next post instead of someone who is serious about really enlightening his readers.

    I say this hopefully in a spirit of fraternal charity because you have many hundreds and even thousands of posts to your name on this forum and on FE alone and yet I've never seen that you've persuaded anyone to change their point of view and adopt yours.

    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    « Reply #10 on: November 25, 2009, 08:43:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Quote from: Catholic Samurai

    Are you willing to throw away your voting liscense in order to devote more time to preaching Catholicism?


    I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here (I've never heard of a voting license) but if I had to exchange the right to vote for the right to speak about the Faith, sure, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


    why would we assume it was either or.for now, we have both.....at time is coming soon when voting and public participation will be ended....best to get out there, now in the public arena and push while we can, planting seeds and conversions....


    Your obsession with the "public arena" is more reminiscent of the Novus Ordo "social justice" crowd than with Trad Catholics. I think the Catholic Worker movement or maybe Liberation Theology would be better fits for you.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 10:12:10 AM »
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  • Jude, you are idiotic, Catholics are NOT called to remain hidden in a Church or in a cellar, but to bring Christ into the arena......traditional Catholics know this, I have reams of literature and talks on this....

    Getting involved is not the same as liberation theology, a communistic movement...just because both urge involvement does not mean they are the  same....


    as for Catholic Worker, day went to Mass daily, as did Peter Maurin, both had a love of the Latin Mass.....do you go daily to Mass?


    as for what is fitted for me, I would suggest you go to Fisheaters, your idiocy is more suited there....

    also, I am obssessed with the Social Reign of Christ, social in the public arena as in Church.......but the rest, you are not a psychologist, stop embarrasing yourself trying to be one.....as well as embarrasing yourself trying to act like a Trad......I was and have been one for decades now.........again, I have the Traditional writings on my side that DO NOT tell me to hide myself in some cellar/prayer room only, but bring Christ into every facet of life-business,political,social,etc........

    and never,ever presume to tell me or suggest to me what "fits me".....  again, i have the traditional writings on my side, not some hide in a cellar, keep quite, make no waves  Bill Buckly americanism........
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 10:15:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
    Quote from: Belloc

    No you are not, because you missed the whole point-matter of fact, you could not even see who wrote the article, nor the source cited,etc......

    so, please do not try to evangelize until you can read the English language......


    My my! How quickly you take offense, and become hostile.

    Belloc, have you ever considered how many readers of this forum and FE you have undoubtedly driven away from Chesterton and Belloc's ideas?

    I imagine you use the same pompous and obsessive rhetoric on other forums as well. Your lack of spelling skills, knowledge of basic capitalization and punctuation, and sentence structure doesn't help either. It gives the impression of a sloppy thinker in a big hurry to make his next post instead of someone who is serious about really enlightening his readers.

    I say this hopefully in a spirit of fraternal charity because you have many hundreds and even thousands of posts to your name on this forum and on FE alone and yet I've never seen that you've persuaded anyone to change their point of view and adopt yours.



    actually, an easy going fellow normally, but your the one with self-absorbed pompousness......I ahve met several people-personally, Joseph Pearce and Dale Ahlquist, that became Catholics reading Chesterton/Belloc.....if people do not like their non-AMericanist writings, oh well, best they never come into the Church at all......

    neither do I care about FE.....like that will keep me up at night, gee they do not like me there......a bunch of Americanists and NeoCaths......

    I do not need to persuade,reason and faith are enough to look at and consider an idea.......

    again, arm-chair psychology is not your suit.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 10:26:09 AM »
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  • How I Didn't Become a Conservative
    by Thomas Storck





    Recently I saw an amusing description of the gathering known as the Philadelphia Society, a meeting that takes place every year in that Pennsylvania city. The writer called it a place for anyone who considers himself a conservative, from those who want to sell off public parks to the highest bidder to those who yearn for a restoration of the Hapsburg monarchy. But I have a question about this: What unites those who attend this meeting? Obviously it could be hostility toward those who call themselves liberals. After all, are not liberals those who favor abortion, same-sex unions, a government that grows annually bigger like a cancer? Perhaps, but some libertarians (who also attend the Society's meeting) have nothing against abortion or same-sex unions, and some of those who call themselves liberals hold positions similar or identical with some attendees at the Philadelphia Society, e.g., on the American invasion of Iraq or the need of some kind of restraint on private economic activity to orient it toward the common good. These sorts of reflections produce one conclusion in me: the term "conservative" is so meaningless that we would do well to abandon it altogether. It is not a helpful shorthand to simplify our thinking, but a sure way to muddle our thoughts.

    Permit me to engage in some personal history here, not because I suppose that my life will be of special interest to many, but because I think I can illustrate my objections to the term "conservative" better this way. I was raised in a family that could be called moderately liberal politically and with few or no religious beliefs, although we were generally faithful church attenders, going to a succession of Protestant churches till we ended up in the Episcopal Church when I was ten or eleven years old. But I was not expected by my parents to actually believe anything that the Episcopal Church believed nor to regard their services as anything more than a tasteful mixture of music and beautiful sixteenth-century prose.

    In the late 1960s, in my last two years in high school, I came under two influences at about the same time, historic Christianity and the countercultural movement of the 60s. From historic Christianity, from authors such as C. S. Lewis, Ronald Knox, Newman and Chesterton I came to recognize the existence of God and the value of objective truth, the fact that the Christian faith was something handed down from the Apostles, not made up by each generation, and the primacy of the spiritual in human personal and social life. From the counterculture I got indeed a jumble of ideas, some right, some perverse. The ideas which were right included a compelling critique of bourgeois materialism and a concern for the natural environment, which seemed to me not all that different from many of the things that Chesterton or Belloc was saying. Of course the erroneous ideas that I got from the counterculture, chiefly about authority and the uses of pleasure, had to be rejected, but even at the time I never entirely accepted them since I could see their incompatibility with my new religious faith.

    Even before this time I had been very interested in socio-economic questions, and after reading Richard Tawney's Religion and the Rise of Capitalism I saw that the Catholic Church had a consistent and ancient view on questions of economic morality. Thus I began to move away from the conventional and mildly statist positions I had hitherto held. But I also saw that the Church's historic view did have some overlap with the viewpoint of conventional liberalism and of the New Left. At any rate, it certainly did not correspond well with the viewpoint of the Goldwater conservatives with their rugged individualism and exaltation of economic freedom.

    In the 1970s I discovered the papal social encyclicals and eventually entered the Catholic Church early in 1978. One question I had to deal with during this time was this: Was I a conservative? I certainly knew that I was not any sort of a liberal. But was I a conservative? I opposed abortion, the Equal Rights Amendment, the nascent ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ movement, but I also opposed capitalism, the notion that the government should be reduced to as small a size as possible, the materialism that permeates American life. I remember in the 1976 election there was some attempt on the part of commentators to distinguish between social and economic conservatism, and in fact Jimmy Carter ran for President as a social conservative and economic liberal, though the conduct of his administration provided little evidence of any strong commitment to social conservatism. In any case, this distinction was soon forgotten and during the Reagan years social conservatives seemed happy to conform on all points to the conservative agenda.

    In 1976, as part of a post-baccalaureate program, I did a study of American conservatism, discovering not only well-known authors such as Russell Kirk, but largely unknown ones too, such as George Fitzhugh, the bitter Southern critic of capitalism and defender of slavery, and Ralph Adams Cram, architect and social theorist, author of the amazing little book about medieval cities, Walled Towns. But I eventually concluded that I was not, as that word was used today in the United States, a conservative. And although in the succeeding thirty years much has happened, including the emergence of neo-conservatism and "paleo-conservatism," I still adhere to that judgment. My reasons for this will show why I consider the term useless and muddled.

    First, I saw that whatever some writers might claim about what "true" or "real" conservatism was or should be, in the popular mind conservatism was inextricably linked with an economic philosophy that I knew was in reality a form of liberalism, something that the more clear-thinking upholders of the free market, such as Milton Friedman, have always claimed. An economic system that has no explicit care for the common good is simply part of that revolt against Christian civilization which began in the sixteenth century, a revolt against the economic morality of the Middle Ages. Since I was beginning to write and get published about this time, I did not want to have the burden not only of explaining what a traditional Catholic cultural and social approach was, but of explaining or explaining away the label "conservative." Although I did have some accidental overlap in policies with those who called themselves conservative, I had some of the same with liberals, and I saw no common underlying philosophy that united me with either.

    Secondly, I did not understand the descriptive utility of the term. Certainly I did not want to conserve the present order, indeed I wanted to change it radically. It is true that I wanted to restore many of the cultural and social institutions of traditional Western civilization, but this was no longer a matter of conservation but of restoration. Moreover, it seemed to me that Catholics needed to have a positive program, that is, to champion a positive idea, not simply to use a slogan that implied that we wanted things always to remain the same.
    Lastly, if we consider the various people who are lumped together as conservatives, the term makes no sense. If General Franco, for example, whose regime certainly was not ideologically committed to free-market economics, is a conservative, how in the world could Ronald Reagan be one too? At best the term is useful only within the context of one country and one limited time period, in which case those who upheld Stalinism in the 1950s in the Soviet Union would rightly be called conservatives.

    The official post-World War II American conservative movement seemed to me merely a jumble of conflicting ideas, rabid free-marketers, people who saw Edmund Burke's opposition to the French Revolution as the everlasting essence of conservatism, those who looked to continental theoreticians such as De Maistre, all united apparently by their opposition to Communism and the moderate statism that Franklin Roosevelt had introduced here in the United States. The divisions, compromises and strange alliances that characterized the movement did not attract me at all. And over it all generally loomed a hostility to state action in the economic realm that often did not agree with the teaching of the Popes in their social encyclicals.

    So for many years I have refused to identify as a conservative nor to place myself on the supposed left/right spectrum. A few political scientists have suggested a more sophisticated division, with a four-fold schema of libertarians (little or no state action on either economic or family issues); conservatives (state intervention in family issues but not in the economy); liberals (state regulation of the economy, but not of family issues); and traditionalists (state intervention in both areas). This is certainly a superior way of looking at the matter, but I am not sure even it is completely adequate. For it seems to me that there are fundamental issues here that go back to questions about the origin and purpose of the state which this division does not deal with. For example, all disciples of John Locke (which includes nearly every American political thinker) regard the state as having arisen from a social compact (real or simulated) and to be limited in its purposes to man's external life, chiefly his liberty and property. But for the ancients and especially for the Catholic tradition, the state is a natural institution and has a kind of care for man's moral development, for virtue. Thus I think it likely that before one can begin to compare political philosophies one must place them within their broad intellectual traditions. A genuine Catholic political philosophy is neither to the left nor to the right of any Lockean position. They are incommensurable.

    The sooner Catholics realize this, the sooner will we free ourselves from associations, both intellectual and practical, with alien philosophies. Although at present there is no possibility in the United States for a genuine Catholic politics, there is always a possibility for right Catholic thinking, for exposition of the truth, for the careful storing up of what may be used by future generations. Our task (except for a few narrow areas, such as abortion) seems to me less one of action than of contemplation, a contemplation of the always fruitful sources of Catholic tradition. It is one of conversion of heart, both our own hearts and of our fellow countrymen. For in the long run, the only hope for a Catholic politics is a Catholic people and a Catholic nation. And if these seem unlikely, then surely a Catholic politics is more unlikely still.

    Note-the last highlighted area implies that action, not merely hiding in a cellar somewhere, is what is needed to win souls and also, to bring about a Catholic state......
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 10:45:39 AM »
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  • BTW, sorry for tone if this offends everyone else, but I am rather tired of Catholics that seems to want to play psychiatrist and seem at least to want to hide in a cellar and do nothing to promote CST/Christ the King (hard to do if staying in that cellar).Promotion means action, not just prayer....and should not be equated to socialist Liberation Theology merely because both wish to promote an idea nad to take action on it....

    So.....if anyone else is upset, my apologies....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic