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Author Topic: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.  (Read 2380 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2022, 02:02:44 PM »
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  • Two things occurred to me reading all the above posts. (1) What changed in creation after the fall of Adam and Eve. One can reason this out. If animals and fish did not eat one another before the Fall, then huge changes would have had to happen similar to the creation itself. Take whales, snakes falcons etc., that feed on living things in the sea and on land as now observed, if they were flora eating creatures they would have had to change their whole digestive system.

    Second, I got to the Kolbe debate as recorded. I could only stick a few minutes before fast-forwarding it. I find such debates go into the science of genetics etc that few can comprehend. It is a long time since I read something about the evolution-creation debate that got my attention. It came from Martin Gwynne when he wrote ;their belief is not only nonsense, but simple nonsense. In other words you cannot win any debate on evolution with exchanges of science v non-science  Nor do you have to have a degree or professorship in any such science.Here is how you convert some to see evolution for what it is, simple nonsense.

    For their evolution of the living to happen a first cell must evolve in the ‘pre-bionic soup,’ that is, the potpourri of star-dust and certain chemicals produced by the ‘Big Bang.’ Now it is one thing proposing such a unit as a cell evolved from a mixture of inorganic matter, another for it to acquire its ‘vitalism’ or life in order to function. The source and cause of animation; be it flora or fauna, lies totally outside the realm of human science. Try as they did, do and will, they will never give life to non-living matter for that ability belongs solely to God. As Louis Pasteur said, you can only get vitalism in something already living.

    As for this living cell itself, well first it must have a NUCLEUS. This is the control centre needed in the heart of the organism and operates the cell through complex molecules of NUCLEIC ACID (DNA) and the GENES that make up those molecules and act as the units of heredity. Each of these carries the code for some characteristic of its natural form. This code is spelled out by hundreds of smaller units called NUCLEOTIDES that are arranged in highly specific sequences within the gene. Now these genes are constructed in strings called CHROMOSOMES and are strung in precise and specific sequences. In the human cell there are 46 chromosomes arranged in paired arms, twin arms. In the nucleus of any cell the chromosomes contain the already coded blueprint for structuring the body. A MEMBRANE encloses the cell, structured so as to allow certain chemicals only to pass through it. Inside this is a fluid called CYTOPLASM in which countless bodies carry on the life-lasting business of the cell. An OUTER-MEMBRANE encloses and protects the cell; it in turn allowing only certain materials to enter or leave by a method unknown to science. Inside the cell there is an ongoing production of PROTEINS. Each type of protein is determined by a code in the gene. An ENZYME is triggered which examines the gene and builds an RNA-MOLECULE in the image of the blueprint. When this is completed, it receives a signal to stop. This RNA brings the message to the cytoplasm where it is held by one of many RIBOSOMES that are so complex as to defy scientific comprehension. These build up the protein by linking various AMINO ACIDS in the specific sequence of the blueprint. For this, TRANSFER-RNA catches amino-acids, each using special enzymes. Each of the mechanisms of the evolving cell would need a computer to regulate, for even the simplest cell contains several thousand kinds of proteins and many billions, yes billions, of each of those kinds. The data contained within any first cell at its emergence from the evolutionary stew-pot would be equivalent to a 50 million telephone number, or the amount of information needed to monitor every traffic light change in the world.


    Now let us address their 'living cell' that the sun gave life to:    

    How then did the first evolving cell survive? We all know that you need all of any living creature to survive. you need to eat etc. Can anything live without the means to survive? What part of any creature evolved first from that first cell? In fauna, which organ evolved first, the brain, the heart, the kidneys, the spleen, the glands etc? Which system of a body evolves first, its blood and veins, its circulatory system, its digestive system, its endocrine system, its respiratory system, its nervous system, its immune system, its lymphatic system, its muscular system, its skeletal system, its urinary system, its reproductive system? Can one essential part of a living creature exist without the others? Then there is the fantasy of further evolution, the ability to change in so many ways. Take for example an eye, the ability of anything that sees to see. What an amazing organ, structured to take in images, light and darkness, colour and shapes, and pass on such images to the brain whereupon the creature can ‘see them.’ Did the ability to see evolve, and if so, was it by chance? If anybody believes the ability for a creature to see came about by chance evolution then they are intellectually redundant, they have lost control of their thinking ability. And that is what even debating the subject of natural evolution is; indulging in absolute nonsense, simple nonsense. And that is why Charles Darwin skipped the impossible bits and his theory began with an already evolved creature or creatures ready for further evolution. But even this illusion had problems. You see if all these evolving creatures once existed then the evolving fossils found in the massive sediments formed over their supposed millions of years should be able to confirm this evolution. But in Darwin’s time, no such linking fossils had been found. He knew this and hoped they would be found later. Indeed, he said his theory depended on finding them. This we know did not happen.

    ‘In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions… these have not been found -- yet the optimism has died hard, and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.’--- Evolution and the Fossil Record. 

    Offline hansel

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #31 on: May 28, 2022, 02:49:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    Simeon said: Great points, Hansel!

    1. Yes, such changes could be considered macroevolutionary, and therefore impossible. Also such changes would seem to contradict Holy Writ, wherein it is revealed that God created all the living things according to their kinds. Philosophy helps us to understand these kinds - the principle of essence limiting the principle of existence, and this according to the substantial form. I think it is correct to say that the accidents we see in animals, such as their teeth, anatomy, digestive tracts, etc., are also limited by the form. Change the accidents and you change the form - which is impossible. (Perhaps we can talk about chimeras/GMO's further ahead.)

    Additionally, every single created species is in some way reflective of the attributes of the Divine Creator. Psalm 44: The queen stood on Thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety. There are many solid interpretations of this verse, including that it signifies Our Lady, or the Church. I often read it as signifying Creation, which has for its two most prominent hallmarks, hierarchical order and innumerable variety. 

    Cockroaches, serpents, flesh-eaters - these all reflect either Divine attributes, or realities of Creation and Redemption. At the very least, all of these beings reflect God as Pure Existence. But there are many other applicable analogies. If only men would contemplate creation prayerfully, it would read like another Holy Writ, with, perhaps, even the same four senses. 

    2. Ken Ham is a creep. Inside his creation museum, is a room dedicated to trashing the Roman Catholic Church. I wrote him to complain, and I never received a reply. 

    3. I love all your examples. There is a fantastic book, which you can read at archive.org. It was published circa 1926. Fr. Barry O'Toole, The Case Against Evolution. There may be some cosmological or other minor errors in it. I can't remember now. But it is chock full of examples like what you've supplied; and also excellent arguments of a philosophical nature, which prove many of the certain truths of natural religion.  
    Thank you Simeon for that book recommendation and your comments. I will definitely look up Fr. O'Toole's 1926 book and look forward to reading it! 


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #32 on: May 28, 2022, 07:27:08 PM »
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  • This is from the Roman Martyrology and is chanted in the divine office every Christmas. These are the words of the sacred liturgy:
    I cannot think of any grouping of words in existence that gives me more tingling joy than these! Thanks for posting them!

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #33 on: May 28, 2022, 07:29:10 PM »
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  • Thank you Simeon for that book recommendation and your comments. I will definitely look up Fr. O'Toole's 1926 book and look forward to reading it!
    Roger that!!!

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #34 on: May 28, 2022, 10:27:09 PM »
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  • Derailment to announce an invitation from Hugh Owen

    I will be driving to the Diocese of Little Rock, Arkansas, on the weekend of June 4-5, and I will be passing through or close by Nashville and Memphis. If anyone in that area—or anywhere roughly along my route—would like to arrange a Kolbe presentation on Saturday evening, June 4, or on Wednesday evening, June 8, on my way back to Virginia, I would be happy to oblige. 

    I will also be in New England on the weekend of June 11-12 and would be happy to give a Kolbe talk at any venue in upstate New York or New England over that weekend. If you would like to discuss a possible venue, please email me as soon as possible at howen@shentel.net.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline mrandolph

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #35 on: May 31, 2022, 05:11:54 PM »
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  • Enjoyed the Hugh Owen (aka Mr. Kolbe :laugh1:) and Dr. Kevin Mark presentations.  As far as debating though, it's as if the atheists had their fingers in their ears.  Atheism stems from a certain blindness and, in this case, also deafness.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Debate - God specially created mankind less than 10,000 years ago.
    « Reply #36 on: June 01, 2022, 08:57:11 AM »
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  • It really is an interesting question.

    Genesis 1 states: [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat:
    Dixitque Deus : Ecce dedi vobis omnem herbam afferentem semen super terram, et universa ligna quae habent in semetipsis sementem generis sui, ut sint vobis in escam :

    [30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.
    et cunctis animantibus terrae, omnique volucri caeli, et universis quae moventur in terra, et in quibus est anima vivens, ut habeant ad vescendum. Et factum est ita.

    And St. Paul, Romans 8: [19] For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God.

    Nam exspectatio creaturae revelationem filiorum Dei exspectat.

    [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope:
    Vanitati enim creatura subjecta est non volens, sed propter eum, qui subjecit eam in spe :

    [21] Because the creature also itself shall be delivered from the servitude of corruption, into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
    quia et ipsa creatura liberabitur a servitute corruptionis in libertatem gloriae filiorum Dei.

    [22] For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now.
    Scimus enim quod omnis creatura ingemiscit, et parturit usque adhuc.


    Is it not the tradition of the Church that all of material creation fell with Adam's sin? Upon a simple reading of the texts, one might come away with the idea that all creatures ate herbs before the Fall. If I'm not mistaken, well-known creationist Paula Haigh held to that opinion.

    If she is correct, then why the differences in the teeth of carnivores and herbivores? It's hard to conceive that the Fall of man would have caused these kinds of changes in the physical characteristics of animals. Ultimately, I think the guiding principle is that the consequence of the Fall is to throw all of material creation into disorder. The body rebels against the soul, though the soul's rightful dominion is not obliterated. And the creature rebels against man, though his rightful dominion over the earth is not obliterated.
    Interestingly:
    https://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/genesis/docuмents/bible_genesis_en.html

    And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."

    Adam's first sin is the cause of death.