Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: GALILEO HERETIC  (Read 2310 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46914
  • Reputation: +27782/-5164
  • Gender: Male
Re: GALILEO HERETIC
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2022, 04:23:49 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • MO is that E & S are both in motion. :popcorn:

    Only thing in motion on the earth is the room spinning around you as you inhale deeply.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8304
    • Reputation: +4718/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #16 on: May 01, 2022, 06:28:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Only thing in motion on the earth is the room spinning around you as you inhale deeply.
    1464762241027-1
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3887
    • Reputation: +2998/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #17 on: May 02, 2022, 06:24:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The above post MAKES ABSOLUTLY NO SENSE TO MOI. I have never been a 'geo-centrist" & have always trashed Galileo's helio-centrism.MO is that E & S are both in motion. :popcorn:

    Yes roscoe, I know that, And that is why your essay tries to reinvent the Galileo case, to try to convince readers that your Church, the Catholic Church, really didn't do, say, and bind all to Galileo's heresy of a fixed-sun.

    Your Real Galileo says: "As for Galileo, it is the purpose of this work to shatter the mistaken conception most have of his relationship with The Catholic Church."

    Before I go on you also write: "Einstien refers to Galileo as the father of modern physics." Yet you ignore Einstein when he had to fall in with the facts of physics, "‘All modern cosmology stands or falls with this concept [the Copernican Principle] being correct, even though, to quote a text approved by Einstein: “We cannot feel our motion through space, nor has any experiment proved the Earth in motion.”’ (Lincoln Barnett: The universe and Dr. Einstein, Dover Publications, 1948, p.73.)

    Next you write: "…In breaking these conceptions, the actions of the Church will be shown to be above reproach. Galileo runs afoul of INQ on two seperate occaisions–1616 and 1633. He is censored both times in astronomical terms but this will be shown to be only symbolic in 1633."

    Here above your essay  switches the 1633 trial from Galileo's hertetical fixed sun, orbiting Earth solar system to
    "Galileo’s quantum, atomist theories amount to an attack on the Doctrine Of The Real Presence in the Eucharist. …From Fr Parsons Some Lies And Errors Of History pg 86
    ” To such a Tribunal a denunciation was made that Galileo or his deciples had asserted  God is an accident and not a substance– a personal being; that miracles are not miracles at all. Then the Pontiff declared that for the termination of the scandal, Galileo should be cited and admonished by the Sacred Congregation.”…An attack on the Eucharist using atomist physical theories is nothing new as this was used by Wycliff, Luther, Calvin etc. This is what the ‘Reformation’ was all about. The Real Galileo has been found."

    So, according to your essay the above is what happened in 1633. Well now roscoe, let us record what really did happen in 1633 as recorded from the Inquisition docuмents themselves.

    The Inquisition’s Sentence:


    ‘… “And to the end,” said the docuмent, “that so pernicious a doctrine might be altogether taken away, and spread no further to the heavy detriment of Catholic truth, a decree emanated from the Sacred Congregation of the Index in which books that treat of doctrine of the kind were prohibited, and that doctrine was declared false, and altogether contrary to the sacred and divine Scripture.” And observe in what emphatic and unmistakable terms Rome repudiated the notion that the decree might be interpreted as a practical direction, as a measure of caution for the time being, or as anything short of an absolute settlement of the question. “Understanding,” the Sacred Congregation said, “that, through the publication of a work at Florence entitled Dialogo di Galileo Galilei delle due massime Sisteme del Mundo Ptolemaico e Copernicano, the false opinion of the motion of the Earth and the stability of the sun was gaining ground, it had examined the book, and had found it to be a manifest infringement of the injunction laid on you, since you in the same book have defended an opinion already condemned, and declared to your face to be so, in that you have tried in the said book, by various devices, to persuade yourself that you leave the matter undetermined, and the opinion expressed as probable; the which, however, is a most grave error, since an opinion can in no manner be probable which has been declared, and defined to be, contrary to the divine Scripture.” ‘Thus the declaration of the Index - for which all the authority of an absolutely true decision was claimed - was identified with the condemnatory judgment made known to Galileo by a Congregation held in the Pope’s presence. This was significant enough but note what followed. “And when a convenient time had been assigned you for your defence, you produced the following certificate in the handwriting of the most eminent Lord Cardinal Bellarmine… procured, as you said, to protect you from the calumnies of your enemies, who had put it about that you had abjured, and had been punished by the Holy Office; in which certificate it is affirmed that you had not abjured, had not been punished, but only that the declaration made by our Lord the Pope, and promulgated by the Sacred Congregation of the Index; had been announced to you the tenor whereof is, that the doctrine of the motion of the Earth, and of the fixity of the sun, is contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, and therefore can neither be defended, nor held.  “But this very certificate produced in your defence has rather aggravated the charge against you; for it asserts that the above-mentioned opinion is contrary to Holy Scripture: yet you dared to treat of it, to defend it, and advance it as probable.” Here the Congregation plainly made it known that the decision of the Index was Papal. But in what sense Papal? In a sense according to what had been said above, to make it a most grave error to suppose that the opinion condemned thereby could in any manner be probable. In a sense, according to the sentence that followed, to justify its being classed with declarations and definitions the conclusiveness of which it would be heresy to deny. It was papal in such a way that a Catholic might be compelled to yield its doctrine the assent of faith.’
    The sentence continued: “Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence we say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo, on account of these things proved against you by docuмentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy,  that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures -to wit, that the sun is in the centre of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the Earth moves, and is not the centre of the universe; and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture. And consequently, that you have incurred all the censures and penalties decreed and promulgated by the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against delinquents of this class. From which it is our pleasure that you should be absolved, provided that, with a pure heart and faith unfeigned, you in our presence first abjure, curse, and detest, the above-named errors and heresies, and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church, according to the formula which we shall show you. And that this your grave and pernicious error, and transgression remain not altogether unpunished, and that you may be the more cautious for the future, and be an example to others to abstain from offences of this sort, we decree that the book of the Dialogues of Galileo Galilei be prohibited by public edict; and you we condemn to the prison of this Holy Office during our will and pleasure; and, as a salutary penance, we command you recite the seven Penitential Psalms once a week for three years; reserving to ourselves the power of moderating, commuting; or taking away altogether, or in part, the above-mentioned penalties and penances.”’

    Galileo’s Abjuration:

    “I, Galileo Galilei, son of the late Vincenzio Galilei of Florence, aged seventy years, appearing personally before this court, and kneeing before you, the most eminent and reverend Lord Cardinals, Inquisitors-General of the universal Christian Republic against heretical pravity, having before my eyes the most holy Gospels, and touching them with my hands, swear that I always have believed, and now believe, and with God’s help will always believe, all that the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church holds, preaches, and teaches. But because, after this Holy Office had juridically enjoined me to abandon altogether the false opinion which holds that the sun is in the centre of the world, and immovable, and that the Earth is not the centre, and moves; and had forbidden me to hold, defend, or teach in any manner, the said false doctrine; and after it had been notified to me that the said doctrine is repugnant to Holy Scripture, I wrote and caused to be printed a book, wherein I treat of the same doctrine already condemned, and adduced arguments with great efficacy in favour of it, without offering any solution of them; therefore I am judged vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, of having held and believed that the sun is the centre of the world and immovable, and that the Earth is not the centre, and moves. Wherefore, desiring to remove from the minds of your Eminences, and all Catholic Christians, this vehement suspicion legitimately conceived against me, with a sincere heart and faith unfeigned, I abjure, curse, and detest, the above-named errors and heresies, and generally every other error and sect contrary to the above-mentioned Holy Church; and I swear for the future, I will neither say, nor assert by word of mouth, or in writing, anything to bring upon me similar suspicion. And if I shall know any heretic, or one suspected of heresy, I will denounce him to this Holy Office, or to the Inquisitor, or Ordinary of the place in which I may be. Moreover, I swear, and promise, to fulfil, and observe entirely, all the penances that have been or shall be imposed on me by this Holy Office. And if -which God forbid- I act against any of these said promises, protestations, and oaths, I subject myself to all the penalties and punishments which the sacred canons, and other constitutions, general and particular, have enacted, and promulgated against such delinquents.  So help me God, and His holy Gospels, which I touch with my hands. “I, Galileo Galilei, have abjured, sworn, promised, and bound myself as above; in token whereof I have signed with my own hand this formula of my abjuration, and have recited it word by word.” Thus did Rome’s supreme Pontifical Congregation, established, to use the words of Pope Sixtus V, “the strongest bulwark of the Catholic religion to which it is accustomed to preside over it, on account of the sum of the gravity of the Roman Pontiff, ” known to be acting under the Pope’s orders, announce to the Catholic world that it had been ruled that the Papal declaration of 1616 was to be received, not as a fallible utterance, but as an absolute sentence and abjuration, as an expression of the mind of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that the Holy See regarded the opinion condemned thereby as nothing less than heresy.’

    Where then roscoe is the atomism you claim the 1633 trial was all about? Were the records lying to the world when they make it clear the heresy was the heliocentrism you hold and defend on CIF.


    For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest,
     nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad. (Luke: 8:17)



    Offline Donachie

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2566
    • Reputation: +620/-258
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #18 on: May 02, 2022, 02:48:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "... that heliocentrism, or acentrism, and flat Earthism all run into the irrational problems of infinite regress. Space and whatever motion or energy is in it cannot be properly explained by an infinite regress, which error is woven inti the sense of heliocentrism, or acentrism, and flat Earthism".

    PLuto Administrations Bk VII Ch 5 Sec 2 3451a -72 Vol. III

    Offline Donachie

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2566
    • Reputation: +620/-258
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #19 on: May 02, 2022, 02:50:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • in some editions page 720 others 719 or 712.


    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7677
    • Reputation: +646/-417
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #20 on: May 02, 2022, 06:05:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes roscoe, I know that, And that is why your essay tries to reinvent the Galileo case, to try to convince readers that your Church, the Catholic Church, really didn't do, say, and bind all to Galileo's heresy of a fixed-sun.

    Your Real Galileo says: "As for Galileo, it is the purpose of this work to shatter the mistaken conception most have of his relationship with The Catholic Church."

    Before I go on you also write: "Einstien refers to Galileo as the father of modern physics." Yet you ignore Einstein when he had to fall in with the facts of physics, "‘All modern cosmology stands or falls with this concept [the Copernican Principle] being correct, even though, to quote a text approved by Einstein: “We cannot feel our motion through space, nor has any experiment proved the Earth in motion.”’ (Lincoln Barnett: The universe and Dr. Einstein, Dover Publications, 1948, p.73.)

    Next you write: "…In breaking these conceptions, the actions of the Church will be shown to be above reproach. Galileo runs afoul of INQ on two seperate occaisions–1616 and 1633. He is censored both times in astronomical terms but this will be shown to be only symbolic in 1633."

    Here above your essay  switches the 1633 trial from Galileo's hertetical fixed sun, orbiting Earth solar system to
    "Galileo’s quantum, atomist theories amount to an attack on the Doctrine Of The Real Presence in the Eucharist. …From Fr Parsons Some Lies And Errors Of History pg 86
    ” To such a Tribunal a denunciation was made that Galileo or his deciples had asserted  God is an accident and not a substance– a personal being; that miracles are not miracles at all. Then the Pontiff declared that for the termination of the scandal, Galileo should be cited and admonished by the Sacred Congregation.”…An attack on the Eucharist using atomist physical theories is nothing new as this was used by Wycliff, Luther, Calvin etc. This is what the ‘Reformation’ was all about. The Real Galileo has been found."

    So, according to your essay the above is what happened in 1633. Well now roscoe, let us record what really did happen in 1633 as recorded from the Inquisition docuмents themselves.

    The Inquisition’s Sentence:


    ‘… “And to the end,” said the docuмent, “that so pernicious a doctrine might be altogether taken away, and spread no further to the heavy detriment of Catholic truth, a decree emanated from the Sacred Congregation of the Index in which books that treat of doctrine of the kind were prohibited, and that doctrine was declared false, and altogether contrary to the sacred and divine Scripture.” And observe in what emphatic and unmistakable terms Rome repudiated the notion that the decree might be interpreted as a practical direction, as a measure of caution for the time being, or as anything short of an absolute settlement of the question. “Understanding,” the Sacred Congregation said, “that, through the publication of a work at Florence entitled Dialogo di Galileo Galilei delle due massime Sisteme del Mundo Ptolemaico e Copernicano, the false opinion of the motion of the Earth and the stability of the sun was gaining ground, it had examined the book, and had found it to be a manifest infringement of the injunction laid on you, since you in the same book have defended an opinion already condemned, and declared to your face to be so, in that you have tried in the said book, by various devices, to persuade yourself that you leave the matter undetermined, and the opinion expressed as probable; the which, however, is a most grave error, since an opinion can in no manner be probable which has been declared, and defined to be, contrary to the divine Scripture.” ‘Thus the declaration of the Index - for which all the authority of an absolutely true decision was claimed - was identified with the condemnatory judgment made known to Galileo by a Congregation held in the Pope’s presence. This was significant enough but note what followed. “And when a convenient time had been assigned you for your defence, you produced the following certificate in the handwriting of the most eminent Lord Cardinal Bellarmine… procured, as you said, to protect you from the calumnies of your enemies, who had put it about that you had abjured, and had been punished by the Holy Office; in which certificate it is affirmed that you had not abjured, had not been punished, but only that the declaration made by our Lord the Pope, and promulgated by the Sacred Congregation of the Index; had been announced to you the tenor whereof is, that the doctrine of the motion of the Earth, and of the fixity of the sun, is contrary to the Sacred Scriptures, and therefore can neither be defended, nor held.  “But this very certificate produced in your defence has rather aggravated the charge against you; for it asserts that the above-mentioned opinion is contrary to Holy Scripture: yet you dared to treat of it, to defend it, and advance it as probable.” Here the Congregation plainly made it known that the decision of the Index was Papal. But in what sense Papal? In a sense according to what had been said above, to make it a most grave error to suppose that the opinion condemned thereby could in any manner be probable. In a sense, according to the sentence that followed, to justify its being classed with declarations and definitions the conclusiveness of which it would be heresy to deny. It was papal in such a way that a Catholic might be compelled to yield its doctrine the assent of faith.’
    The sentence continued: “Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence we say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo, on account of these things proved against you by docuмentary evidence, and which have been confessed by you as aforesaid, have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy,  that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures -to wit, that the sun is in the centre of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the Earth moves, and is not the centre of the universe; and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to Holy Scripture. And consequently, that you have incurred all the censures and penalties decreed and promulgated by the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against delinquents of this class. From which it is our pleasure that you should be absolved, provided that, with a pure heart and faith unfeigned, you in our presence first abjure, curse, and detest, the above-named errors and heresies, and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church, according to the formula which we shall show you. And that this your grave and pernicious error, and transgression remain not altogether unpunished, and that you may be the more cautious for the future, and be an example to others to abstain from offences of this sort, we decree that the book of the Dialogues of Galileo Galilei be prohibited by public edict; and you we condemn to the prison of this Holy Office during our will and pleasure; and, as a salutary penance, we command you recite the seven Penitential Psalms once a week for three years; reserving to ourselves the power of moderating, commuting; or taking away altogether, or in part, the above-mentioned penalties and penances.”’

    Galileo’s Abjuration:

    “I, Galileo Galilei, son of the late Vincenzio Galilei of Florence, aged seventy years, appearing personally before this court, and kneeing before you, the most eminent and reverend Lord Cardinals, Inquisitors-General of the universal Christian Republic against heretical pravity, having before my eyes the most holy Gospels, and touching them with my hands, swear that I always have believed, and now believe, and with God’s help will always believe, all that the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church holds, preaches, and teaches. But because, after this Holy Office had juridically enjoined me to abandon altogether the false opinion which holds that the sun is in the centre of the world, and immovable, and that the Earth is not the centre, and moves; and had forbidden me to hold, defend, or teach in any manner, the said false doctrine; and after it had been notified to me that the said doctrine is repugnant to Holy Scripture, I wrote and caused to be printed a book, wherein I treat of the same doctrine already condemned, and adduced arguments with great efficacy in favour of it, without offering any solution of them; therefore I am judged vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, of having held and believed that the sun is the centre of the world and immovable, and that the Earth is not the centre, and moves. Wherefore, desiring to remove from the minds of your Eminences, and all Catholic Christians, this vehement suspicion legitimately conceived against me, with a sincere heart and faith unfeigned, I abjure, curse, and detest, the above-named errors and heresies, and generally every other error and sect contrary to the above-mentioned Holy Church; and I swear for the future, I will neither say, nor assert by word of mouth, or in writing, anything to bring upon me similar suspicion. And if I shall know any heretic, or one suspected of heresy, I will denounce him to this Holy Office, or to the Inquisitor, or Ordinary of the place in which I may be. Moreover, I swear, and promise, to fulfil, and observe entirely, all the penances that have been or shall be imposed on me by this Holy Office. And if -which God forbid- I act against any of these said promises, protestations, and oaths, I subject myself to all the penalties and punishments which the sacred canons, and other constitutions, general and particular, have enacted, and promulgated against such delinquents.  So help me God, and His holy Gospels, which I touch with my hands. “I, Galileo Galilei, have abjured, sworn, promised, and bound myself as above; in token whereof I have signed with my own hand this formula of my abjuration, and have recited it word by word.” Thus did Rome’s supreme Pontifical Congregation, established, to use the words of Pope Sixtus V, “the strongest bulwark of the Catholic religion to which it is accustomed to preside over it, on account of the sum of the gravity of the Roman Pontiff, ” known to be acting under the Pope’s orders, announce to the Catholic world that it had been ruled that the Papal declaration of 1616 was to be received, not as a fallible utterance, but as an absolute sentence and abjuration, as an expression of the mind of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that the Holy See regarded the opinion condemned thereby as nothing less than heresy.’

    Where then roscoe is the atomism you claim the 1633 trial was all about? Were the records lying to the world when they make it clear the heresy was the heliocentrism you hold and defend on CIF.


    For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest,
     nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad. (Luke: 8:17)

    Pls provide evidence from any post I have ever made where helio-centrim is defended...  :confused:

    Anyone who ACTUALLY READS  Galileo Heretic will see that i am being truthfull re:Galleo's atomism.

    Why else would the famous idiot Einstien refer to him as FATHER OF MODERN PHYSICS??

    I will expect an apology when no evidence of my supporting Helio- centrsm is produced...
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7677
    • Reputation: +646/-417
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #21 on: May 02, 2022, 06:31:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And BTW-- there are numerous copies of Redondi's Galileo Heretic on Addall used for a very meager price... :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3887
    • Reputation: +2998/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #22 on: May 03, 2022, 11:44:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pls provide evidence from any post I have ever made where helio-centrim is defended...  :confused:

    Anyone who ACTUALLY READS  Galileo Heretic will see that i am being truthfull re:Galleo's atomism.

    Why else would the famous idiot Einstien refer to him as FATHER OF MODERN PHYSICS??

    I will expect an apology when no evidence of my supporting Helio- centrsm is produced...

    You have posted "E revs around s." or suchlike many times roscoe. Now to me 'E revs around S' is what a geocentrist denier would say. Go ask others who read the same post from you any time the subject comes up. Your "MO is that E & S are both in motion" just an updated anti-Catholic faith invention as it denies the decree of Pope Paul V below.

    (2) “That the Earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered to be at least erroneous in faith.”

    Galileo was never tried or convicted with regard to atomism. Yes it was another Pythagorean heresy that the Inquisition were aware of that could have come from Galileo's heliocentrism, just as other worlds and aliens could have if the Inquisition didn't stop  Galileo's Bible changing was allowed. Once heliocentrism was given the thumbs up by popes in 1820-35, then as the Inquisition feared, all the other heresies did come back and are believed by most Catholics today. 




    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7677
    • Reputation: +646/-417
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #23 on: May 03, 2022, 12:21:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • E rev around S. Also-- E & S ARE BOTH IN MOTION :popcorn:

    How Atomism could possibly come from Helio-centrism is way beyond my comprehension...
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3887
    • Reputation: +2998/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #24 on: May 03, 2022, 12:49:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • E rev around S. Also-- E & S ARE BOTH IN MOTION :popcorn:

    How Atomism could possibly come from Helio-centrism is way beyond my comprehension...

    So, your universe is a John Henry Newman one roscoe? 

    ‘In recalling it at this day there stand out from its later phases two efforts at compromise especially instructive, as showing the embarrassment of militant theology in the nineteenth century. The first of these was made by John Henry Newman in the days when he was hovering between the Anglican and Roman Churches. In one of his sermons before the University of Oxford he spoke as follows: “Scripture says that the sun moves and the Earth is stationary, and science that the Earth moves and the sun is comparatively at rest. How can we determine which of these opposite statements is the very truth till we know what motion is? If our idea of motion is but an accidental result of our present senses, neither proposition is true and both are true: neither true philosophically; both true for certain practical purposes in the system in which they are respectively found.” In all anti-theological literature there is no utterance more hopelessly sceptical. And for what were the youth of Oxford led into such bottomless depths of disbelief as to any real existence of truth or real foundation for it? Simply to save an outworn system of interpretation into which the gifted preacher happened to be born.’ (Andrew D. White: A History, p.166.)

    Newton said mass attracts. Mass is made up of atoms. It was only when heliocentrism became the norm that the nebular theory of combining atoms was invented to explain a 'natural' heliocentric solar system. The first version of the nebular hypothesis was proposed in 1755 by the German philosopher Immanuel Kant and modified in 1796 by Pierre Laplace.’ So when churchmen accepted heliocentrism in 1820 it was an evolved one by way of the Pythagorean heresy of combining atoms.

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7677
    • Reputation: +646/-417
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #25 on: May 03, 2022, 01:28:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And BTW-- Acc to Chateubriand( Genius Of Christianity), Atomism is the concept of a Phoenician by the name of Moschus... in about 3rd Century BC

    i don't know alot about Newman but i do know that St Pius X had no problem w/ him. :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3887
    • Reputation: +2998/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #26 on: May 04, 2022, 04:18:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And BTW-- Acc to Chateubriand( Genius Of Christianity), Atomism is the concept of a Phoenician by the name of Moschus... in about 3rd Century BC

    i don't know alot about Newman but i do know that St Pius X had no problem w/ him. :popcorn:

    When it came to Galileoism, it fooled 'even the elect' like Pope St Pius X. 

    Newman thought he was competent to resolve the Galileo case. In trying to do so this man raised the retreat from Biblical geocentrism to a new level of sophistry.

    ‘As the Copernican system first made progress... it was generally received... as a truth of Revelation, that the Earth was stationary, and that the sun, fixed in a solid firmament, whirled round the Earth. After a little time, however, and on full consideration, it was found that the Church had decided next to nothing on questions such as these... it surely is a very remarkable feat, considering how widely and how long one certain interpretation of these physical statements in Scripture had been received by Catholics, that the Church should not have formally acknowledged it... Nor was this escape a mere accident, but rather the result of providential superintendence.’ – Henry Newman: The Idea of a University, 1852, p.468.

    Here we see Henry Newman needed no abrogation to dismiss the 1616 papal ruling as deciding ‘next to nothing.’ Nor did it occur to him that if providential superintendence was present at all during the Galileo case, would he as a Catholic convert not think it more prudent of God to side with His Church, with the interpretation of the Fathers and prevent His popes of 1616 and 1633 when defining and declaring Galileoism formal heresy in the first place? Of course it would. Of all the manoeuvres used by the Earthmovers to try to save the Church from its own supposedly ‘erroneous’ decrees, as they saw it, this has to be the most reckless; asserting it was God Himself who made sure the anti-heliocentric decrees and judgements were meaningless.

    Offline cassini

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3887
    • Reputation: +2998/-275
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #27 on: May 04, 2022, 04:36:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Henry Newman’s Galileo, Revelation, and the Educated Man. (1861)

    ‘One of the characteristics of the day is the renewal of that collision between men of science and believers in Revelation, and of that uneasiness in the public mind as to its results, which are found in the history of the 17th century. Then, Galileo raised the jealousy of Catholics in Italy; but now in England the religious portion of the community, be they Catholic or not, is startled at the discoveries or speculations of geologists, natural historians and linguists. Of course I am speaking, as regards both dates, of the educated classes, of those whose minds have been sufficiently opened to understand the nature of proof, who have a right to ask questions and to weigh the answers given to them. It was of such, we must reasonably suppose, that Father Commissary was tender in 1637 [1633], and to such he allied in his conversation with Galileo, as he took him in his carriage to the Holy Office. “As we went along,” says Galileo, “he put many questions to me, and showed an earnestness that I should repair the scandal, which I had given to the whole of Italy, by maintaining the opinion of the motion of the Earth; and for all the solid and mathematical reasons which I presented to him, he did but reply to me: “Terra autem in aeternum stabit,’ because ‘Terra autem in aeternum stat,’ as Scripture says.” There could not be a greater shock to religious minds of that day than Galileo’s doctrine, whether they at once rejected it as contrary to the faith, or listened to the arguments by which he enforced it. The feeling was strong enough to effect Galileo’s compulsory recantation, though a pope was then on the throne who was personally friendly to him. Two Sacred Congregations represented the popular voice and passed decrees against the philosopher, which were in force down to the years 1822 and 1837 [1820-35]. Such an alarm never can occur again, for the very reason that it has occurred once. At least, for myself, I can say that, had I been brought up in the belief of the immobility of the Earth as though a dogma of Revelation, and had associated it in my mind with the incommunicable dignity of man among created things, with the destinies of the human race, with the locality of purgatory and hell, and other Christian doctrines, and then for the first time had heard Galileo’s thesis, and, moreover, the prospect held out to me that perhaps there were myriads of globes like our own all filled with rational creatures as worthy of the Creator’s regard as we are, I should have been at once indignant at its presumption and frightened at its speciousness, as I never can be at any parallel novelties in other human sciences bearing on religion; no, not though I found probable reasons for thinking the first chapters of Genesis were not of an economical character, that there was a pre-Adamite race of rational animals, or that we are now 20,000 years from Noah. For that past controversy and its issue have taught me beyond all mistake, that men of the greatest theological knowledge may firmly believe that scientific conclusions are contrary to the Word of God, when they are not so, and pronounce that to be heresy which is truth. It has taught me, that Scripture is not inspired to convey mere secular knowledge, whether about the heaven or the Earth, or the race of man; and that I need not fear for Revelation whatever truths may be brought to light by means of observation and experience out of the world of phenomena which environ us. And I seem to myself here to be speaking under the protection and sanction of the Sacred Congregation of the Index itself, which has since the time of Galileo prescribed to itself a line of action, indication of its fearlessness of any results which may happen to religion from physical sciences…. One great lesson surely, if no other, is taught by the history of theological controversy since the 16th century: moderation to the assailant, equanimity to the assailed, and that as regards geological and ethnological conclusions as well as astronomical. But there is more than this to give us confidence in this matter. Consider then the case before us: Galileo on his knees abjured the heresy that the Earth moved [no, that the sun did not move around the Earth]; but the course of human thought, of observation, investigation and induction, could not be stayed; it went on and had its way. It penetrated and ran through the Catholic world as well as through the nations external to it. And then at length, in our own day, the doctrine, which was the subject of it, was found to be so harmless in a religious point of view, that the books advocating it were taken off the Index, and the prohibition to print and publish the like was withdrawn. But of course the investigation has gone further, and done, or is now even doing, some positive service to the cause which it was accused of opposing. It is on the way to restore to the Earth that prerogative and pre-eminence in the creation which it was thought to compromise. Thus investigation which Catholics would have suppressed as dangerous, when, in spite of them, it has had its course, results in conclusions favourable to their cause. How little then need we fear the free exercise of reason! How injurious is the suspicion entertained of it by religious men. How true it is that nature and revelation are but two separate communications from the same infinite Truth. Nor is this all. Much has been said of late years of the dangerous tendency of geological speculations or researches. Well, what harm have they done to the Christian cause, others must say who are more qualified than I am to determine; but on one point, that is the point before us, I observe it is acting on the side of Christian belief. In answer to the supposed improbability of their being planets with rational inhabitants, considering that our globe has such, geology teaches us that, in fact, whatever our religion may accidentally teach us to hope or fear about other worlds, in this world at least, long ages past, we had either no inhabitants at all, or none but those rude and vast brutal forms [hominoids], which could perform no intelligent homage and service to their Creator. Thus one order of spiritual researches bears upon another, and that in the interest or service of Christianity; and supposing, as some persons seem to believe in their hearts, that these researches are all in the hands of the enemy of God, we have the observable phenomenon of Satan casting out Satan and restoring the balance of physical arguments in favour of Revelation. Now let us suppose that the influences which were in the ascendant throughout Italy in 1637 [1633] had succeeded in repressing any free investigation on the question of the motion of the Earth. The mind of the educated class would have not the less felt that it was a question, and would have been haunted, and would have been poisoned, by the misgiving that there was some real danger to Revelation in the investigation; for otherwise the ecclesiastical authorities would not have forbidden it. There would have been in the Catholic community a mass of irritated, ill-tempered, feverish and festering suspicion, engendering general scepticism and hatred of the priesthood, and relieving itself in a sort of tacit Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, of which secret societies are the development, and then in sudden outbreaks perhaps of violence and blasphemy. Protestantism is a dismal evil; but in this respect Providence has overruled it for the good. It has, by allowing free inquiry in science, destroyed a bugbear, and thereby saved Catholics so far from the misery of hollow profession and secret infidelity. I think, then, I must say distinctly that I have no sympathy at all in that policy, which will not look difficulties or apparent difficulties in the face, and puts off the evil day of considering them as long as it can.  It is the way of politicians who live from hand to mouth, only careful that the existing state of things should last their time. If I find that scientific inquiries are running counter against certain theological opinions, it is not expedient to refuse to examine whether these opinions are well founded, merely because those inquiries have not yet reached their issue or attained a triumphant success. The history of Galileo is the proof of it. Are we not at a disadvantage as regards that history? Why, except because our theologians [popes and all the Fathers of the Church], instead of cautiously examining what Scripture, that is, the Written Word of God, really said, thought it better to put down with a high hand the astronomical views which were opposed to its popular interpretation? The contrary course was pursued in our own day; but what is not against the faith now, was not against the faith three centuries ago; yet Galileo was forced to pronounce his opinions a heresy. It might not indeed have been prudent to have done in 1637 [1633] what was done in 1822 [1820]; but, though in the former date it might have been unjustifiable to allow the free publication of his treatises with the sanction of the Church, that does not show that it was justifiable to pronounce that they were against the faith and to enforce the abjuration. I am not certain that I might not go further and advocate the full liberty to teach the motion of the Earth, as a philosophical truth, not only now, but even three centuries ago. The Father Commissary said it was a scandal to the whole of Italy; that is, I suppose, an offence, a shock, a perplexity. This might be, but there was a class, whose claims to consideration are too little regarded now, and were passed over then. I mean the educated class; to them the prohibition would be a real scandal in the true meaning of the word, an occasion of their falling. Men who have sharpened their intellects by exercise and study anticipate the conclusions of the many by some centuries. If the tone of public opinion in 1822 [1820] called for a withdrawal of the prohibition at Trent of the Earth’s movement, the condition of the able and educated called for it in Galileo’s age; and it is as clear to me that their spiritual state ought to be consulted for, as it is difficult to say why in fact it is so often is not. They are tenderly to be regarded for their own sake; they are to be respected and conciliated for the sake of their influence upon other classes. I cannot help feeling that, in high circles, the Church is sometimes looked upon as made up of the hierarchy and the poor, and that the educated portion, men and women, are viewed as a difficulty, an encuмbrance, as the seat and source of heresy, as almost aliens to the Catholic body, whom it would be a great gain, if possible, to annihilate. For all these reasons, I cannot agree with those who would have us stand by what is probably or possibly erroneous, as if it were dogma, till it is acknowledged on all hands, by the force of demonstrations to be actually such. If she affirms, as I do not think she will affirm, that everything was made and finished in a moment though Scripture seems to say otherwise, and though science seems to prove otherwise, I affirm it too, and with an inward and sincere assent.  And, as her word is to be believed, so her command is to be obeyed. I am as willing then to be silenced on doctrinal matters which are not of faith as to be taught in matters which are. It would be nothing else than a great gain to be rid of the anxiety which haunts a person circuмstanced as I am, lest, by keeping silence on points as that on which I have begun to speak, I should perchance be hiding my talent in a napkin..’--John Henry Newman (As found in James Collins, Philosophical Readings on Cardinal John Henry Newman (Chicago: H. Regnery Press, 1961), pp.284-291. (http://inters.org/Newman-Galileo-Revelation)


    Notre Dame University’s Church Life Journal called Newman ‘the patron saint of evolution.’ 

    If one were to search all the comments on the Galileo case and how it led to the introduction of uniformitarianism and evolution into Biblical interpretation and belief that became the modernism condemned by Pope St Pius X as the ‘heresy of all heresies,’ one could not find a better example as to how this modernism crept ‘into the womb of the Catholic Church.' Feeling protected by his belief in heliocentrism and Darwin’s evolution of all ‘creation,’ we see his pride in the ‘science’ they believed in had shown Genesis was ‘unscientific’ whatever that means. Newman, who was even aware ‘of the prohibition at Trent of the Earth’s movement,’ confirms how the Galilean U-turn placed Biblical exegesis under the auspices of ‘scientific probabilities,’ even the existence of monkey to man evolution on Earth, and a similar heretical evolution possible on ‘other worlds’ when he wrote ‘the supposed improbability of their being planets with rational inhabitants,’ shows how those other Pythagorean heresies literally came back into play as Pope Paul V and Pope Urban VIII anticipated if the Galilean reformation took hold.

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7677
    • Reputation: +646/-417
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #28 on: May 04, 2022, 10:16:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is nothing in the article re: Galileo's Atomism. Apparently Pope St Pius X did not agree w/ Notre Dame Journal... :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7677
    • Reputation: +646/-417
    • Gender: Male
    Re: GALILEO HERETIC
    « Reply #29 on: May 06, 2022, 01:36:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • :confused:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'