I have been happily surprised at Dust 7's fresh perspective and erudition.  But being a pro Israel Catholic is like being a liberal Catholic, or a satanic saint.

Perhaps.  I hope soon.

being a pro Israel Catholic is like being a liberal Catholic, or a satanic saint.

I also hope for stability in Iraq, which already has sworn the state to Islam in their re-founding docuмents. The same for Afganistan. That doesn't mean that I approve Islam. I don't approve threatening to behead some guy who returned to Afganistan because he had the temerity to convert to Protestantism from Islam. Apparently, for Muslims, that's a killing offense. I don't approve of that. I don't approve of any future Lubavitcher 'jihad' against the Protestant Jews for Jesus, either. But that doesn't mean that, as faithful Catholics, we ought not support Israel, now, in 2007.

That also doesn't mean that one says to the Jews - don't convert. That is a Roman Protestant belief, not a Catholic one. It doesn't mean get rid of all calls for the Jews to convert. That still remains a Roman Protestant belief, despite Ratzinger's recent docuмent. And it doesn't mean that Catholics can expect sympathy or understanding, or anything less than jealous cruelty from orthodox rabbis actually living in Israel. But that doesn't matter.

Why would you equate support for the state of Israel with liberalism and even satanism? In fact, those Jews most opposed to many Israeli policies are themselves very liberal, and very unreligious. As they have moved to Israel and begun voting, Israel has weakened as a result, and is now less able to defeat those who attack it (but as long as the US provides the arms, which we refused to do for the S. Vietnamese under Gerry Ford, just as counter-example).

Waiting to hear from you, Dust.   :ready-to-eat:

Because the still-aloof and faithless existence Jєωιѕн Nation - which refused to carry out the very mission for which it was created - is objectively contrary to the Divine Plan, for which Our Lord Jesus Christ died on the Cross.

So you actually dispute Israel's right to exist. I agree that this was the position of Pope St. Pius X, and even surprisingly that of his less than orthodox successor. But The Church was less vocal about this 'continuing judgment' following the secrets uncovered under former nαzι rule. I don't believe that Pius XII lobbied against the UN partition. But correct me if I'm wrong. And in any case, I don't think you'd argue this is a matter of dogma, or even something somewhat less, that a Catholic is in any case bound to oppose the 'zionism' that consisted of creating an independent Jєωιѕн state (again, whatever Jєωιѕн actually meant, in fact, when compared with antiquity).

I don't defend Begin. I don't defend the King David. I don't defend ginning up Final Solution death tolls to the point of exaggeration - because that's fuel for the 'deniers', now, at this point. I don't defend the Lubavitchers or their schemes to get the Jews for Jesus should the 3rd Temple be built and a new Sanhedrin created to pass such a death sentence. I don't defend what Netanyahu and the orthodox rabbis have to say about true Catholicism - whatever they say about Ratzinger or the Roman Protestants.

So, none of that. But I do think that Catholics can support the right of Israel to exist. I most certainly do. This doesn't mean that one supports modern, post-Temple Judaism or its exclusive claims going back to the 'chosen people' which were abrogated even before The Last Supper.

And again, this doesn't mean one supports that militant Judaism which roughs up Catholics or Orthodox in the old city just because some official or some troops had a bad day. And generally, the Israel military seems very composed, and professional, and prone only to receiving calumny from a leftist establishment, worldwide, that you might think would be almost unthinkingly in their corner. It doesn't even mean one supports their socialist ways, or various other things. It doesn't mean that one supports their destruction of holy places, should that be legitimately accused, any more than one would accuse the Palestinians prior to partition when the 'mandate' was in force.

You get into a world of hurt there, Dust.  You make sense and I can agree with maybe everything you said.  BUT there is simply no winnowing these things out anymore.  I am of the opinion that the Catholic Church became the "Jews" at Christ's passion.  So the real "Jews" are actually the real "Catholics".  

Now what is known as Jew is the enemy of the Jew, if you know what I mean.  Kind of reminds me of the mind boggling ways our political parties swapped names.  Anyway, there is no way you are going to straighten these things out in real time.  It's best, in my opinion, to just use the words as they mean for the majority of people.  So a ʝʊdɛօ Christian is a person who is split into two warring factions.  Can't exist.

As for supporting Israel or being pro Israel, yuck.  Nowadays that means we send them everything that isn't tied down, fight their cockeyed wars for them, and let them run our country and make our laws.  And those laws are not conducive to our good, either.  And again, you can't really tease that out of the simple idea that we shouldn't want them wiped off the face of the map.   There's gotta be a better word for what you mean than "pro Israel".

So to the extent that Catholicism carried on from Judaism, at least that faithful to God and not the treacherous leaders of the Temple complex in Our Lord's day, you could easily say that Catholicism IS Judaism, true Judaism, but also more because it simply is not only the Jews who now can be saved.

Catholicism never "carried on from Judaism".  Judaism is a man-made perversion of God's revelation to the Israelites.  It is not the religion of the OT - the religion of the Israelites.

What you can say is that the Catholic Church is the true Israel, and Catholics are the true Israelites.

Instead, a false and substitute Judaism arose after the Temple...

Judaism IS the false/substitute religion.  It is what our Lord was talking about when castigating the Pharisees for making void the word of God, substituting the laws of men.