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Author Topic: ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?  (Read 3625 times)

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Offline Malleus 01

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ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2013, 02:02:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.

    This is an example of the double effect where someone does not deliberately intend to kill herself but in order to prevent an even greater evil (her involuntary cooperation in another's sin) that would be the forseeable result of her jumping into the river.


    Their intent is to prevent sin , however. Their intent is not to self destruct. The self destruction is not a result of despair in relation to GOD's Commandments but rather a response to obey them and to prevent Their neighbors sin as well. In that regard it is not ѕυιcιdє born of despair.  Just like when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his Buddies in War.   If no buddies were around and he jumped on the same grenade out of despair - the result is the same but the underlying moral causation is not

    Offline bowler

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #16 on: December 25, 2013, 08:02:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus 01
    Quote from: poche
    However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.

    This is an example of the double effect where someone does not deliberately intend to kill herself but in order to prevent an even greater evil (her involuntary cooperation in another's sin) that would be the forseeable result of her jumping into the river.


    Their intent is to prevent sin , however. Their intent is not to self destruct. The self destruction is not a result of despair in relation to GOD's Commandments but rather a response to obey them and to prevent Their neighbors sin as well. In that regard it is not ѕυιcιdє born of despair.  Just like when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his Buddies in War.   If no buddies were around and he jumped on the same grenade out of despair - the result is the same but the underlying moral causation is not


    If the intent is to kill oneself to avoid whatever, it is a mortal sin and a sign of despair. It is all in the intent. I remember once reading about a WWII pilot in Germany that fell from 20,000 feet and his parachutes did not work, and he survived. Anything is possible. ѕυιcιdє is all in the intent. If the intent is to kill oneself to avoid other pain and suffering, it is a mortal sin and a sign of despair

    A woman jumping into a river to save herself from rape or death, does not necessarily mean she is committing ѕυιcιdє, for a river does not always mean death and drowning.


    Offline Petertherock

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #17 on: December 25, 2013, 10:52:15 PM »
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  • Judas was depressed and in despair. He was also very remorseful of what he did. But instead of asking for forgiveness, he offed himself. Now, we are quite certain that Judas is in Hell.


    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #18 on: December 25, 2013, 11:38:28 PM »
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  • Sorry: there have been just too many martyrs who, for a mere word, denial of God, sex, or other sell-out may have saved their mortal flesh, but who put their immortal souls above the material body. Some of this is just common sense. Yes, God loves life and wants us to live, but He wants us to love HIM more than our mortal flesh. Always. He has conquered death, so this "body is our temple" stuff is great, but our temples still fall short on this side of the mortal coil. I think we have to show some compassion here; we don't know what someone's circuмstances might be (sick and dying, threatening family members forcing someone to kill themselves... I'm just not going to consider judging odd cases like that).

    As for psychological illnesses, or other reasons (rape, paedo rape), that's up to God to judge, though I'd point out that from Nebuchadnezzar (crazy for 10 yrs; lived like wolf) through Tiffany and others, God doesn't seem to ALLOW ѕυιcιdєs if one isn't destined to that end. Insane, temporarily insane, depressed, or whatnot, God works everything to the benefit of the remnant/Church. God obviously allows for martyrdom, but I tend to think such a martyrdom needs to affect a person or people around the martyr so God's "example" or sign is seen. I think Judas is the perfect example: someone who murdered himself without feeling remorse; just wanting to end it all. And as the rest of the Gospel and Acts show, no one much cared one whit for their former friend Judas. (Sounds harsh, but there it is; I haven't read about even one tear shed for Judas, much less a funeral Mass!)

    God MAY be being more merciful in this day and age due to an apparent sudden appearance of invincible ignorance (and boy does it seem "invincible") But we can't ever support ѕυιcιdє, because murder is murder.

    My bigger questions are in accidents that, due to their inherent danger, result in death; or in refusing extraordinary means to stay alive (not just chemo, but far more than that with a very slight chance of life afterwards, on a machine forever, etc)... but those are questions brought on by evil times. If we're concerned enough to worry, and not just shooting from the hip without asking a priest at least, I imagine God must take that into account.

    But I'm not denying God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost for no monster man, even with a gun to my head, and if that's "ѕυιcιdє", then I guess "sign me up." (I hope, that is; I pray I don't chicken out when the time comes. There are days I fear such questions are more timely than we imagine.)
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline poche

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 12:57:36 AM »
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  • From the testimony of Gloria Polo about ѕυιcιdє;

    While I was crying out, I began to hear crying thousands and thousands of persons, youth… Yes, above all youth, with so much suffering! I perceived that there, in that horrible place, in that quagmire of hate and of suffering, they were gnashing their teeth, with screams and laments that filled me with compassion and that I will never be able to forget… (Already 10 years have passed, but I still cry and suffer, when I remember the suffering of all those persons)… I was saying, I understood that in that place there were those persons who, in one moment of desperation, they committed ѕυιcιdє… Now they are in those torments, with those horrible beings near them, surrounded by demons that torment them. But the cruelest of these torments was the absence of God, because there one does not feel God. I understood that, those who in one moment of desperation took their lives, had to remain there, within those torments, until all the time that they might have spent on the earth had passed: because all those who kill themselves, go out of the Divine Order.

    Those poor persons, above all so many youth, many, many… They cry and suffer much… If man might know the suffering that awaits him, never would anyone make the decision to take his life!

    Do you know what the greatest torment is, there?
    It is to see how one’s own parents, or relatives, who are alive, are crying and suffering with a tremendous sense of guilt: if I would have punished, or if I would not have punished, if I had said to him, or if I had not said to him, if I had done this or that… In the end, these regrets so terrible, - a true hell for those who love them and remain in this life - , they are what makes them suffer the most. It is the greatest torment for them, and it is here that the demons rage, showing these scenes:

    “Look how your mother cries, look how she suffers, look how your father suffers, look how they are desperate, how they are distressed, how they blame themselves and discuss, accusing each other reciprocally, look at all the suffering that you caused them. Look how they rebel against God. Look at your family… All this because of your fault!”

    That which these poor souls need, is that those who remain down here might begin a walk of conversion, that they might change their life, that they might do works of charity, that they might visit the sick… And that they might offer Masses in suffrage for the soul of the dead. These souls benefit enormously from all of this. In fact, the souls who find themselves in Purgatory can no longer do anything for themselves. Nothing! But God yes, through the Mass. Also we must help them in this way.

    http://testimony-polo.blogspot.com/


    Offline Cantarella

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #20 on: January 06, 2014, 01:38:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: StCeciliasGirl
    God MAY be being more merciful in this day and age due to an apparent sudden appearance of invincible ignorance


    No, I don't think so.

    Quoting Neil, "The Church has historically condemned ѕυιcιdє, and teaches that our greatest penance is to accept the pains of our final agony, whatever they may be, as God's justice in our regard, as our sentence for the penance we owe for our own sins"

    A human being who dies as result of ѕυιcιdє, has committed murder against self, which is to say has died in mortal sin, (against fifth commandment and of despair, against the Holy Ghost) and thus has damned his soul to eternity.

    The case of the martyrs is different. A martyr that dies to prevent mortal sin and therefore dead of soul, is not committing ѕυιcιdє in the context the OP is describing.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #21 on: January 06, 2014, 08:25:39 AM »
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  • Maybe they might be in purgatory.  

    We have to pray for their souls no matter what.
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    « Reply #22 on: January 06, 2014, 10:09:05 AM »
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  • And they might go to Heaven.   Good point the shepherds are neglecting their flocks and leading them to slaughter.
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline SJB

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    ѕυιcιdє a way to go straight to heaven ?
    « Reply #23 on: January 06, 2014, 04:00:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    A human being who dies as result of ѕυιcιdє, has committed murder against self, which is to say has died in mortal sin, (against fifth commandment and of despair, against the Holy Ghost) and thus has damned his soul to eternity.


    This requires a judgment of fact. If he had the full use of reason, yes. If not, I don't know that you can make that judgment and you may want to take a look at the canonical penaties for ѕυιcιdє and attempted ѕυιcιdє.


    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline poche

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    « Reply #24 on: January 06, 2014, 10:24:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote
    A human being who dies as result of ѕυιcιdє, has committed murder against self, which is to say has died in mortal sin, (against fifth commandment and of despair, against the Holy Ghost) and thus has damned his soul to eternity.


    This requires a judgment of fact. If he had the full use of reason, yes. If not, I don't know that you can make that judgment and you may want to take a look at the canonical penaties for ѕυιcιdє and attempted ѕυιcιdє.



    That is why we should not judge. We should leave them to the mercy of God and pray for the repose of their souls.