Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: crossbro on December 18, 2013, 01:39:46 AM
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Last year a family at a NO parish here in Reno had a member commit ѕυιcιdє. I don't know the family or the person who killed himself or the situation. Understand I am not trying to discern or judge the particulars of the incident.
But the priest at this parish during daily mass which I attended who did the funeral launched in his homily modern psychology in relation to this incident capping by stating something like it is psychologically impossible for a person in their dreams to see themselves dead.
Now I have run into this before. The argument from modern Church that a person under depression cannot be fully aware of mortal sin and therefore cannot give full consent.
Here is the error in my point of view, what was the lifestyle that led to the depression ? I had an in-law who was deep into drugs, no faith, very immoral, and negative. Not all of that was the result of depression, some of it may have caused depression.
I think you all get the point where I am going here. Just because someone kills themselves does not always mean there is no accountability not just for the ѕυιcιdє but for unrepented sins also.
You opinions ?
I don't think it is correct to 'campaign' for PC that ѕυιcιdє is an assumed pass into heaven just because the truth might be painful.
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Now I have run into this before. The argument from modern Church that a person under depression cannot be fully aware of mortal sin and therefore cannot give full consent.
A person who is insane has impaired mental capacity, like for example a child. A child cannot give the same type of consent as an adult.
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Here is the error in my point of view, what was the lifestyle that led to the depression ? I had an in-law who was deep into drugs, no faith, very immoral, and negative. Not all of that was the result of depression, some of it may have caused depression.
Many times a person with mental illness recognizes that something is wrong but they do not know what to do about it. hence they start to self medicate themselves by using drugs. Thier confusion leads them into immoral and very negative lifestyles. Sometimes it's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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I think you all get the point where I am going here. Just because someone kills themselves does not always mean there is no accountability not just for the ѕυιcιdє but for unrepented sins also.
There is accountability, but we don't always know where the person's diminished capacity left them. God in His justice will judge this person but in His infinite mercy will take the diminished capacity into account.
Another thing too, sometimes ѕυιcιdє is the result of hatred and sins against charity on the part of other people. In that case the other people who were the provacateurs of this personn's ѕυιcιdє will also be judged by the same just God as complicit in the murder of this person.
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Here is the error in my point of view, what was the lifestyle that led to the depression ? I had an in-law who was deep into drugs, no faith, very immoral, and negative. Not all of that was the result of depression, some of it may have caused depression.
Many times a person with mental illness recognizes that something is wrong but they do not know what to do about it. hence they start to self medicate themselves by using drugs. Thier confusion leads them into immoral and very negative lifestyles. Sometimes it's a question of which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I not into specifics of every single ѕυιcιdє or breaking it down.
My issue is that the use of the 'theory' is that it applies in every situation in which a ѕυιcιdє occurs. ѕυιcιdє does not automatically equate to mental disease and not all ѕυιcιdєs are the end product of depression either.
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Typical of the Liberal outlook on things, modern psychobabble and likewise Newchurch equivocation will look to the EXCEPTION to the rule and finding it, will proceed to make that the NEW RULE.
The normal outlook on ѕυιcιdє is that the person who so died met his last moments in the act of committing murder, which is to die in mortal sin.
Only by EXCEPTION can it be otherwise, and since by the nature of the 'crime' we can't interview the participants, we are left to philosophy and moral theology to resolve our questions. In the final analysis, it is in God's hands what becomes of such a one.
But it should be rather obvious that anyone having just received Extreme Unction is not very likely to turn around and kill himself. Rather, it is those who do NOT live in communion with the Church, who do NOT frequent the sacraments and who are NOT baptized and who DEFY THE WILL OF GOD who are most likely to commit ѕυιcιdє. A perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot.
Judas had everything going for him. He was an Apostle of Our Lord, in person. Who among us would not want to trade places with him on that account alone? But of him Our Lord said, it would be better for him had he never been born. Suddenly we're not so eager to take his place!
But it is exactly this one, Judas the Traitor, that progressives in Newchurch are wont to idolize, when they have 12 other good Apostles to choose from (including Matthias, who took his place). That alone tells you a lot. It tells you where these innovators are headed. They want to hold up ѕυιcιdє as some kind of thing to be admired. The Church has never done so.
Rather, the Church has historically condemned ѕυιcιdє, and teaches that our greatest penance is to accept the pains of our final agony, whatever they may be, as God's justice in our regard, as our sentence for the penance we owe for our own sins, and that by so doing, we would perhaps merit a plenary indulgence at the moment of death, which is the ultimate achievement of any penitential endeavor.
But how could one committing ѕυιcιdє be doing that?
He would have to NOT commit ѕυιcιdє in order to qualify, and so, by the fact that he went through with his own murder would seem to exclude him from the possibility of having offered up his own final agony toward his works of penance. Modernists would argue that he could have had a change of heart at the last moment. Okay, and maybe the burglar who pulls the trigger on his Colt .45 and thereby kills you really had a moment of remorse the instant before the hammer struck the cartridge primer. Sure.
The Liberal way of thinking always looks for the exception to the rule, no matter how ridiculous it is.
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I was suicidal as a young child and it was 100% fear of sin that kept me from the act. I was under the age of reason but I'm thankful I had a sense that it was a sin. I wasn't baptized until I was an adult so not sure what would have happened to my soul.
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The only reason that I can think of that ѕυιcιdє without good cause is a mortal sin is because of St Thomas Aquinas who spoke on this in the Summa. His opinion was that the body belonged to the community, and hence we were not our own property.
However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.
Basically ѕυιcιdє is acceptable sometimes, but only if a greater good is served by it, such as refusing to sin.
Lets say someone was trapped in a secret service torture facility, with all kinds of evil satanic experiments and brainwashing being done on them with the agenda of having the victim lose the faith, then they would have a right to die to preserve their faith.
Also, thou shalt not kill is actually thou shalt not "murder".
Is it possible to murder yourself? Only if it is an injustice in God's sight.
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Typical of the Liberal outlook on things, modern psychobabble and likewise Newchurch equivocation will look to the EXCEPTION to the rule and finding it, will proceed to make that the NEW RULE.
The normal outlook on ѕυιcιdє is that the person who so died met his last moments in the act of committing murder, which is to die in mortal sin.
This.
"The Liberal way of thinking always looks for the exception to the rule, no matter how ridiculous it is".
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However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.
Basically ѕυιcιdє is acceptable sometimes, but only if a greater good is served by it, such as refusing to sin.
I never heard of any saint committing ѕυιcιdє. I've never heard of such a thing as you describe. ѕυιcιdє is inherently evil. God would never put us in a situation where ѕυιcιdє would be a better alternative. It is a sign of despair to commit ѕυιcιdє rather than face the possibility of rape.
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How about this scenario:
A madman has a group of people at gunpoint.
He is going to kill one of them but it's up to any one of the hostages to "sacrifice" him or herself for the group. All of these hostages are adults. 25-35 years of age. No children.
A few points:
The madman is a religious nut. He targeted this small group of people because they are all Catholic.
Having the above info, one would think, "Well, this is the -easy way- to get to Heaven."
Or is it?
The madman did not shoot the whole group. He is only asking for one "volunteer".
A hostage, by volunteering will be shot and the rest of the group will be set free.
Can that be considered ѕυιcιdє? Theological problem (mixed sentiments) by knowing (thinking) that you will be killed for The One True Faith and go to heaven for it...BUT in this case, one has to volunteer. Not so easy after all.
Thoughts?
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How about this scenario:
A madman has a group of people at gunpoint.
He is going to kill one of them but it's up to any one of the hostages to "sacrifice" him or herself for the group. All of these hostages are adults. 25-35 years of age. No children.
A few points:
The madman is a religious nut. He targeted this small group of people because they are all Catholic.
Having the above info, one would think, "Well, this is the -easy way- to get to Heaven."
Or is it?
The madman did not shoot the whole group. He is only asking for one "volunteer".
A hostage, by volunteering will be shot and the rest of the group will be set free.
Can that be considered ѕυιcιdє? Theological problem (mixed sentiments) by knowing (thinking) that you will be killed for The One True Faith and go to heaven for it...BUT in this case, one has to volunteer. Not so easy after all.
Thoughts?
No, it would not be ѕυιcιdє it would be murder be regardless if someone did volunteer or not.
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However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.
This is an example of the double effect where someone does not deliberately intend to kill herself but in order to prevent an even greater evil (her involuntary cooperation in another's sin) that would be the forseeable result of her jumping into the river.
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Not enough information here.
Perhaps the whole group can rush the madman & get the gun away from him. Maybe some will be shot & killed & that wouldn't be ѕυιcιdє. Perhaps none will die, maybe some or one would be killed. Maybe some or one will be shot but not killed. I don't like the idea of 'volunteering' unless it's someone who could try to get the gun away from him.
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Last year a family at a NO parish here in Reno had a member commit ѕυιcιdє. I don't know the family or the person who killed himself or the situation. Understand I am not trying to discern or judge the particulars of the incident.
But the priest at this parish during daily mass which I attended who did the funeral launched in his homily modern psychology in relation to this incident capping by stating something like it is psychologically impossible for a person in their dreams to see themselves dead.
Now I have run into this before. The argument from modern Church that a person under depression cannot be fully aware of mortal sin and therefore cannot give full consent.
Here is the error in my point of view, what was the lifestyle that led to the depression ? I had an in-law who was deep into drugs, no faith, very immoral, and negative. Not all of that was the result of depression, some of it may have caused depression.
I think you all get the point where I am going here. Just because someone kills themselves does not always mean there is no accountability not just for the ѕυιcιdє but for unrepented sins also.
You opinions ?
I don't think it is correct to 'campaign' for PC that ѕυιcιdє is an assumed pass into heaven just because the truth might be painful.
Malleus: Life is precious in the eyes of GOD. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Ghost
It is against the Commandment to willfully take innocent life including your own. No man is tempted beyond their strength.
Despair is never great enough to excuse a mortal sin of this nature and since this mortal sin is a final act with no opportunity to repent - obviously to assume the outcome in a positive light may prove very difficult theologically.
Catholic teaching condemns ѕυιcιdє. There is nothing positive about this sinful act.
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However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.
This is an example of the double effect where someone does not deliberately intend to kill herself but in order to prevent an even greater evil (her involuntary cooperation in another's sin) that would be the forseeable result of her jumping into the river.
Their intent is to prevent sin , however. Their intent is not to self destruct. The self destruction is not a result of despair in relation to GOD's Commandments but rather a response to obey them and to prevent Their neighbors sin as well. In that regard it is not ѕυιcιdє born of despair. Just like when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his Buddies in War. If no buddies were around and he jumped on the same grenade out of despair - the result is the same but the underlying moral causation is not
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However he also recalls a pious tale of the chaste women who, in danger of being raped, chose to jump into a river and drown, rather than suffer that injustice against chastity. They are regarded as saints.
This is an example of the double effect where someone does not deliberately intend to kill herself but in order to prevent an even greater evil (her involuntary cooperation in another's sin) that would be the forseeable result of her jumping into the river.
Their intent is to prevent sin , however. Their intent is not to self destruct. The self destruction is not a result of despair in relation to GOD's Commandments but rather a response to obey them and to prevent Their neighbors sin as well. In that regard it is not ѕυιcιdє born of despair. Just like when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save his Buddies in War. If no buddies were around and he jumped on the same grenade out of despair - the result is the same but the underlying moral causation is not
If the intent is to kill oneself to avoid whatever, it is a mortal sin and a sign of despair. It is all in the intent. I remember once reading about a WWII pilot in Germany that fell from 20,000 feet and his parachutes did not work, and he survived. Anything is possible. ѕυιcιdє is all in the intent. If the intent is to kill oneself to avoid other pain and suffering, it is a mortal sin and a sign of despair
A woman jumping into a river to save herself from rape or death, does not necessarily mean she is committing ѕυιcιdє, for a river does not always mean death and drowning.
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Judas was depressed and in despair. He was also very remorseful of what he did. But instead of asking for forgiveness, he offed himself. Now, we are quite certain that Judas is in Hell.
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Sorry: there have been just too many martyrs who, for a mere word, denial of God, sex, or other sell-out may have saved their mortal flesh, but who put their immortal souls above the material body. Some of this is just common sense. Yes, God loves life and wants us to live, but He wants us to love HIM more than our mortal flesh. Always. He has conquered death, so this "body is our temple" stuff is great, but our temples still fall short on this side of the mortal coil. I think we have to show some compassion here; we don't know what someone's circuмstances might be (sick and dying, threatening family members forcing someone to kill themselves... I'm just not going to consider judging odd cases like that).
As for psychological illnesses, or other reasons (rape, paedo rape), that's up to God to judge, though I'd point out that from Nebuchadnezzar (crazy for 10 yrs; lived like wolf) through Tiffany and others, God doesn't seem to ALLOW ѕυιcιdєs if one isn't destined to that end. Insane, temporarily insane, depressed, or whatnot, God works everything to the benefit of the remnant/Church. God obviously allows for martyrdom, but I tend to think such a martyrdom needs to affect a person or people around the martyr so God's "example" or sign is seen. I think Judas is the perfect example: someone who murdered himself without feeling remorse; just wanting to end it all. And as the rest of the Gospel and Acts show, no one much cared one whit for their former friend Judas. (Sounds harsh, but there it is; I haven't read about even one tear shed for Judas, much less a funeral Mass!)
God MAY be being more merciful in this day and age due to an apparent sudden appearance of invincible ignorance (and boy does it seem "invincible") But we can't ever support ѕυιcιdє, because murder is murder.
My bigger questions are in accidents that, due to their inherent danger, result in death; or in refusing extraordinary means to stay alive (not just chemo, but far more than that with a very slight chance of life afterwards, on a machine forever, etc)... but those are questions brought on by evil times. If we're concerned enough to worry, and not just shooting from the hip without asking a priest at least, I imagine God must take that into account.
But I'm not denying God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost for no monster man, even with a gun to my head, and if that's "ѕυιcιdє", then I guess "sign me up." (I hope, that is; I pray I don't chicken out when the time comes. There are days I fear such questions are more timely than we imagine.)
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From the testimony of Gloria Polo about ѕυιcιdє;
While I was crying out, I began to hear crying thousands and thousands of persons, youth… Yes, above all youth, with so much suffering! I perceived that there, in that horrible place, in that quagmire of hate and of suffering, they were gnashing their teeth, with screams and laments that filled me with compassion and that I will never be able to forget… (Already 10 years have passed, but I still cry and suffer, when I remember the suffering of all those persons)… I was saying, I understood that in that place there were those persons who, in one moment of desperation, they committed ѕυιcιdє… Now they are in those torments, with those horrible beings near them, surrounded by demons that torment them. But the cruelest of these torments was the absence of God, because there one does not feel God. I understood that, those who in one moment of desperation took their lives, had to remain there, within those torments, until all the time that they might have spent on the earth had passed: because all those who kill themselves, go out of the Divine Order.
Those poor persons, above all so many youth, many, many… They cry and suffer much… If man might know the suffering that awaits him, never would anyone make the decision to take his life!
Do you know what the greatest torment is, there?
It is to see how one’s own parents, or relatives, who are alive, are crying and suffering with a tremendous sense of guilt: if I would have punished, or if I would not have punished, if I had said to him, or if I had not said to him, if I had done this or that… In the end, these regrets so terrible, - a true hell for those who love them and remain in this life - , they are what makes them suffer the most. It is the greatest torment for them, and it is here that the demons rage, showing these scenes:
“Look how your mother cries, look how she suffers, look how your father suffers, look how they are desperate, how they are distressed, how they blame themselves and discuss, accusing each other reciprocally, look at all the suffering that you caused them. Look how they rebel against God. Look at your family… All this because of your fault!”
That which these poor souls need, is that those who remain down here might begin a walk of conversion, that they might change their life, that they might do works of charity, that they might visit the sick… And that they might offer Masses in suffrage for the soul of the dead. These souls benefit enormously from all of this. In fact, the souls who find themselves in Purgatory can no longer do anything for themselves. Nothing! But God yes, through the Mass. Also we must help them in this way.
http://testimony-polo.blogspot.com/
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God MAY be being more merciful in this day and age due to an apparent sudden appearance of invincible ignorance
No, I don't think so.
Quoting Neil, "The Church has historically condemned ѕυιcιdє, and teaches that our greatest penance is to accept the pains of our final agony, whatever they may be, as God's justice in our regard, as our sentence for the penance we owe for our own sins"
A human being who dies as result of ѕυιcιdє, has committed murder against self, which is to say has died in mortal sin, (against fifth commandment and of despair, against the Holy Ghost) and thus has damned his soul to eternity.
The case of the martyrs is different. A martyr that dies to prevent mortal sin and therefore dead of soul, is not committing ѕυιcιdє in the context the OP is describing.
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Maybe they might be in purgatory.
We have to pray for their souls no matter what.
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And they might go to Heaven. Good point the shepherds are neglecting their flocks and leading them to slaughter.
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A human being who dies as result of ѕυιcιdє, has committed murder against self, which is to say has died in mortal sin, (against fifth commandment and of despair, against the Holy Ghost) and thus has damned his soul to eternity.
This requires a judgment of fact. If he had the full use of reason, yes. If not, I don't know that you can make that judgment and you may want to take a look at the canonical penaties for ѕυιcιdє and attempted ѕυιcιdє.
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A human being who dies as result of ѕυιcιdє, has committed murder against self, which is to say has died in mortal sin, (against fifth commandment and of despair, against the Holy Ghost) and thus has damned his soul to eternity.
This requires a judgment of fact. If he had the full use of reason, yes. If not, I don't know that you can make that judgment and you may want to take a look at the canonical penaties for ѕυιcιdє and attempted ѕυιcιdє.
That is why we should not judge. We should leave them to the mercy of God and pray for the repose of their souls.