Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Nooseph Polten on July 17, 2017, 05:26:55 PM
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I always thought that men and women are meant to fulfill different roles in society. Men are the heads of families and communities, while women are the hearts of them. Men must work to financially support the family, while women must work in the household to care for it and nurture the children. A good example of this is the Holy Family. Men should fight in wars to defend their country if necessary, while women should not. This seems obvious since men are the physically stronger sex, and are,in general, stronger than women. These principles also seem clear, because women are the ones that bear offspring.
There is a diabolical conspiracy these days that attempts to make men and women the same in every way. This ideology is opposed to common sense and seems to be against the teaching of the Church. I have heard many sermons in which priests spoke against it, and even remember a sermon by Fr. Roberts in which he preached against feminism said something along the lines of "Women are not meant to carry AK-47s, and run out onto the battlefield. How disgusting!" However, the sanctity of St. Joan of Arc seems to contradict this.
St. Joan of Arc was a women and was told by God to lead troops into battle, which she did several times, and is praised for this. She is the(or one of the) patron saint of soldiers, and there are many Catholic images of her wearing battle armor and leading her soldiers into battle. I think that one of the organizations for women in the U.S. military is named after St. Joan of Arc. If God created men and women different, then why did he guide a women to do a job that is obviously meant for a man? How could there be a substantial difference in the roles of men and women if this is the case? God cannot deceive, after all, and she is a saint of the Church. Is it perfectly fine for a woman to engage in military combat? Do women have just as much of a right to work outside the home as men? Are men and women not so different after all?
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I'm not going to attempt to dive into a theological discussion on St Joan of Arc, or even attempt to try to figure out why God used her to save France; however, I will say that Bp. Williamson says often, "If the man won't do it (be a man), the woman will." There is quite a bit of truth to that....
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I'm not going to attempt to dive into a theological discussion on St Joan of Arc, or even attempt to try to figure out why God used her to save France; however, I will say that Bp. Williamson says often, "If the man won't do it (be a man), the woman will." There is quite a bit of truth to that....
But why would God raise up a woman to do the job, and not a man? Why would He send the message that a woman is supposed to do this? Why create the appearance that the roles of women and men are the same? Is her case merely an aberration or are women and men pretty much the same after all?
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God choosese who He wills for what He wants. Many times he chooses the most unlikely person to accomplish things so that we do not become proud and thisk it was us that did it.
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FWIW. God will often choose people powerless and completely unsuited to various tasks. This we can see for example, with the apostles, common fishermen, with David vs. Goliath, with Noah building an Ark, with Abraham in eldest age having children, and so forth. He does this to demonstrates that it was not by the natural power of a person that one thing or another was accomplished -- In St. Joan's case, putting an end to the Hundred Years' war.
They're an example of the work of God.
Are Abraham and Sarah an example that you should wait till you're 90-100 to have children? Is Noah an example that everyone should ordinarily build giant boats in the middle of dry land? Or David an example that featherweights should go fight to the death vs. heavyweights?
No. Therefore the exceptional nature of the matter shows it's the work of God, His direct intervention. What was accomplished was by the power of God, St. Joan was the sign this was the case because she was just a young maiden, for whom leading an army to success in war was not something she could in any way accomplish, or something at all reasonable a circuмstance to place a young maiden in, save by divine fiat or one might suppose the most unusual and hard to imagine absolute necessity.
Whenever she did things that were not normally proper for her state it was with proper extenuating circuмstances, and in a way that still was not intrinsically immoral, but properly exceptional however unusual.
That modern people raised in a degenerate society take her as a role model for various immoral actions and roles for women is their own fault.
Remember that God designed the Church, government, and the family, and everything inbetween all to be patriarchies. Patriarchy is good. You'll find the natural roles more surviving in places where corrupt entertainment has not filtered in as greatly, much criticized for it Middle Eastern countries, etc.
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FWIW. God will often choose people powerless and completely unsuited to various tasks. This we can see for example, with the apostles, common fishermen, with David vs. Goliath, with Noah building an Ark, with Abraham in eldest age having children, and so forth. He does this to demonstrates that it was not by the natural power of a person that one thing or another was accomplished -- In St. Joan's case, putting an end to the Hundred Years' war.
They're an example of the work of God.
Are Abraham and Sarah an example that you should wait till you're 90-100 to have children? Is Noah an example that everyone should ordinarily build giant boats in the middle of dry land? Or David an example that featherweights should go fight to the death vs. heavyweights?
No. Therefore the exceptional nature of the matter shows it's the work of God, His direct intervention. What was accomplished was by the power of God, St. Joan was the sign this was the case because she was just a young maiden, for whom leading an army to success in war was not something she could in any way accomplish, or something at all reasonable a circuмstance to place a young maiden in, save by divine fiat or one might suppose the most unusual and hard to imagine absolute necessity.
Whenever she did things that were not normally proper for her state it was with proper extenuating circuмstances, and in a way that still was not intrinsically immoral, but properly exceptional however unusual.
That modern people raised in a degenerate society take her as a role model for various immoral actions and roles for women is their own fault.
Remember that God designed the Church, government, and the family, and everything inbetween all to be patriarchies. Patriarchy is good. You'll find the natural roles more surviving in places where corrupt entertainment has not filtered in as greatly, much criticized for it Middle Eastern countries, etc.
You made some good points. However, it seems that St. Joan of Arc makes it extremely difficult to combat feminism. If I try to say that there are different natural roles for women and men, a feminist can just say "What about St. Joan of Arc?", and I don't have much of a response to make, because there is no clear answer about this case. She can easily be used as their "ace in the hole" to promote gender equality, and it seems that there is no clear rebuttal. This is why I can't fight liberal gender equality too much, because if God is apparently fine with women serving in the military, then where is the line drawn between men's and women's proper place? Why would God make an example that contradicts them?
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How about this for a thought? St Joan of Arc, to my knowledge, never fought in the actual battles. She led the charges, and was at the forefront, yes, but I don't think she carried a sword for killing. At least as far as I know she never killed anyone. And then, too, she was maidenly and modest. She was feminine (not FeminIST), and by her very femininity inspired and led her soldiers to act as true Catholic men. I don't think that there was ever any rough language or swearing in her camps--certainly not in her presence! And all the soldiers attended Mass and Confession following her example.
Perhaps there is someone more knowledgeable about her life than me that could elaborate on it more.
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Joan of Arc (French: Jeanne d'Arc,[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-5) IPA: [ʒan daʁk] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_French); 6 January c. 1412[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-birthdate-6) – 30 May 1431), nicknamed "The Maid of Orléans" (French: La Pucelle d'Orléans), is considered a heroine of France for her role during the Lancastrian phase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War_(1415%E2%80%9353)) of the Hundred Years' War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War) and was canonized as a Roman Catholic saint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_saint). Joan of Arc was born to Jacques d'Arc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_d%27Arc) and Isabelle Romée (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabelle_Rom%C3%A9e), a peasant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant) family, at Domrémy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domr%C3%A9my-la-Pucelle) in north-east France. Joan said she received visions of the Archangel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel)Michael (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)), Saint Margaret (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_the_Virgin), and Saint Catherine of Alexandria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Alexandria) instructing her to support Charles VII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_VII_of_France) and recover France from English domination late in the Hundred Years' War. The uncrowned King Charles VII sent Joan to the siege of Orléans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Orl%C3%A9ans) as part of a relief mission. She gained prominence after the siege was lifted only nine days later. Several additional swift victories led to Charles VII's coronation at Reims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims). This long-awaited event boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory.
On 23 May 1430, she was captured at Compiègne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compi%C3%A8gne) by the Burgundian faction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_(party)), which was allied with the English. She was later handed over to the English[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-justice.gouv.fr-7) and put on trial by the pro-English Bishop of Beauvais Pierre Cauchon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Cauchon) on a variety of charges.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-8) After Cauchon declared her guilty she was burned at the stake (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_burning) on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-ward-9)
In 1456, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Callixtus_III) examined the trial, debunked the charges against her, pronounced her innocent, and declared her a martyr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-ward-9) In the 16th century she became a symbol of the Catholic League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_League_(French)), and in 1803 she was declared a national symbol of France by the decision of Napoleon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon) Bonaparte.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-10) She was beatified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatification)in 1909 and canonized (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization) in 1920. Joan of Arc is one of the nine secondary patron saints (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patron_saint) of France, along with Saint Denis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis), Saint Martin of Tours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_of_Tours), Saint Louis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IX_of_France), Saint Michael (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)), Saint Rémi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Remigius), Saint Petronilla (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petronilla), Saint Radegund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radegund) and Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9r%C3%A8se_of_Lisieux).
Joan of Arc has remained a popular figure in literature, painting, sculpture, and other cultural works since the time of her death, and many famous writers, filmmakers and composers have created works about her. Cultural depictions of her (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_Joan_of_Arc)have continued in films, theater, television, video games, music, and performances to this day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc
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How about this for a thought? St Joan of Arc, to my knowledge, never fought in the actual battles. She led the charges, and was at the forefront, yes, but I don't think she carried a sword for killing. At least as far as I know she never killed anyone.
So you think women should be commanders or generals in the military?
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I think most women are better fitted to be at home baking cookies and changing diapers.
I think that St. Joan of Arc was called by God to fulfill a special mission, which she did in as feminine a way as possible. All women are called to sanctity. Some as wives and mothers, others as nuns, and others as single women. All women are called to fulfill their God-given gender roles in a modest manner, imitating the Blessed Mother as much as they can. And St. Joan of Arc obviously did this or the church would not have declared her a saint.
Radical Feminists are evil women spewing their liberal poison everywhere, desecrating the holy and sacred calling of motherhood. And they have obviously spilled their poison over onto the Saints, now, too.
:soapbox:
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The Hundred Years' War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War) had begun in 1337 as an inheritance dispute over the French throne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_claims_to_the_French_throne), interspersed with occasional periods of relative peace. Nearly all the fighting had taken place in France, and the English army's use of chevauchée (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e) tactics (destructive "scorched earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth)" raids) had devastated the economy.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-11) The French population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography)had not recovered to its size previous to the Black Death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death) of the mid-14th century, and its merchants were isolated from foreign markets. Prior to the appearance of Joan of Arc, the English had nearly achieved their goal of a dual monarchy under English control and the French army had not achieved any major victories for a generation. In the words of DeVries, "The kingdom of France was not even a shadow of its thirteenth-century prototype."[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-12)
The French king at the time of Joan's birth, Charles VI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_VI_of_France), suffered from bouts of insanity[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-13) and was often unable to rule. The king's brother Louis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_of_Valois,_Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans), Duke of Orléans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans), and the king's cousin John the Fearless (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Fearless), Duke of Burgundy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Burgundy), quarreled over the regency of France and the guardianship of the royal children. This dispute included accusations that Louis was having an extramarital affair with the queen, Isabeau of Bavaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabeau_of_Bavaria), and allegations that John the Fearless kidnapped the royal children.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-14) The conflict climaxed with the assassination of the Duke of Orléans in 1407 on the orders of the Duke of Burgundy.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-16)
The young Charles of Orléans succeeded his father as duke and was placed in the custody of his father-in-law, the Count of Armagnac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_VII,_Count_of_Armagnac). Their faction became known as the "Armagnac" faction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armagnac_(party)), and the opposing party led by the Duke of Burgundy was called the "Burgundian faction" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_(party)). Henry V of England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_V_of_England) took advantage of these internal divisions when he invaded the kingdom in 1415, winning a dramatic victory at Agincourt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt) on 25 October and subsequently capturing many northern French towns.[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-17) In 1418 Paris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris) was taken by the Burgundians, who massacred the Count of Armagnac and about 2,500 of his followers.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-18) The future French king, Charles VII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_VII_of_France), assumed the title of Dauphin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dauphin_of_France)—the heir to the throne—at the age of fourteen, after all four of his older brothers had died in succession.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-19) His first significant official act was to conclude a peace treaty with the Duke of Burgundy in 1419. This ended in disaster when Armagnac partisans αssαssιnαtҽd John the Fearless during a meeting under Charles's guarantee of protection. The new duke of Burgundy, Philip the Good (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_the_Good), blamed Charles for the murder and entered into an alliance with the English. The allied forces conquered large sections of France.[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-20)
In 1420 the queen of France, Isabeau of Bavaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabeau_of_Bavaria), signed the Treaty of Troyes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Troyes), which granted the succession of the French throne to Henry V (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_V_of_England) and his heirs instead of her son Charles. This agreement revived suspicions that the Dauphin may have been the illegitimate product of Isabeau's rumored affair with the late duke of Orléans rather than the son of King Charles VI.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-21) Henry V and Charles VI died within two months of each other in 1422, leaving an infant, Henry VI of England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI_of_England), the nominal monarch of both kingdoms. Henry V's brother, John of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Bedford (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Lancaster,_1st_Duke_of_Bedford), acted as regent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent).[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-22)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc
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I think most women are better fitted to be at home baking cookies and changing diapers.
I think that St. Joan of Arc was called by God to fulfill a special mission, which she did in as feminine a way as possible. All women are called to sanctity. Some as wives and mothers, others as nuns, and others as single women. All women are called to fulfill their God-given gender roles in a modest manner, imitating the Blessed Mother as much as they can. And St. Joan of Arc obviously did this or the church would not have declared her a saint.
Radical Feminists are evil women spewing their liberal poison everywhere, desecrating the holy and sacred calling of motherhood. And they have obviously spilled their poison over onto the Saints, now, too.
:soapbox:
So if most(if any) women are not supposed to be soldiers or generals in the military, why is St. Joan of Arc one of the patron saints of soldiers?
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So if most(if any) women are not supposed to be soldiers or generals in the military, why is St. Joan of Arc one of the patron saints of soldiers?
Because she lived the will of God in her life and just as she led the soldiers of France so also does she by her intercession lead our soldiers to Heaven if they live the holiness that God calls them to.
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By the time Joan of Arc began to influence events in 1429, nearly all of northern France and some parts of the southwest were under Anglo-Burgundian control. The English controlled Paris and Rouen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rouen) while the Burgundian faction controlled Reims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims), which had served as the traditional coronation site for French kings since 816. This was an important consideration since neither claimant to the throne of France had been officially crowned yet. In 1428 the English had begun the siege of Orléans, one of the few remaining cities still loyal to Charles VII and an important objective since it held a strategic position along the Loire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loire) River, which made it the last obstacle to an assault on the remainder of the French heartland. In the words of one modern historian, "On the fate of Orléans hung that of the entire kingdom."[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-23) No one was optimistic that the city could long withstand the siege.[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-24) For generations, there had been prophecies in France which promised France would be saved by a virgin from the "borders of Lorraine" "who would work miracles" and "that France will be lost by a woman and shall thereafter be restored by a virgin".[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-25) The second prophecy predicating France would be "lost" by a woman was taken to refer to Isabeau's role in signing the Treaty of Troyes.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-26)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc
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Because she lived the will of God in her life and just as she led the soldiers of France so also does she by her intercession lead our soldiers to Heaven if they live the holiness that God calls them to.
But why would God will that a woman do a job that is traditionally meant for a man, thus blurring the line drawn between the proper roles of men and women?
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Canticle of Canticles:
"Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?"
Our Lady is our General- not for her masculine attributes (lol) but for her sublime humility. No feminist would recognize her as an example of any kind, yet she is the most powerful created being in the Universe. God gave her Queenship over heaven and earth. She is to do battle against the devil.
Maybe our Lord could not resist the simpleness and humility of Jean D'Arc, and as always a paradox, showers that faithful simplicity with greatness. (Mostly spiritual, sometimes temporal, or both). Our Faith seems to be ensconced in paradox, like the Cross. If feminists REALLY knew anything about St Joan, and what attributes gave her her God -given stature, it certainly wouldn't be to their liking. Maybe it is our responsibiliy to let them know the truth about the Maid of Orleans.
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But why would God will that a woman do a job that is traditionally meant for a man, thus blurring the line drawn between the proper roles of men and women?
He could do it to show that the victory that they win is beause of Him rather than their own efforts.
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He could do it to show that the victory that they win is beause of Him rather than their own efforts.
Maybe. However, it seems that having a woman lead an army into battle gives the impression that God condones and encourages be women to be commanders and soldiers in the military. It is easy to see how this blurs the line between men and women's proper places in society. And making her a patron saint of soldiers only adds to the confusion. Why would God and the Church create such confusion?
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Canticle of Canticles:
"Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?"
Our Lady is our General- not for her masculine attributes (lol) but for her sublime humility. No feminist would recognize her as an example of any kind, yet she is the most powerful created being in the Universe. God gave her Queenship over heaven and earth. She is to do battle against the devil.
Every person on this earth is called to do a certain amount of battling the devil. The Blessed Mother, being the Mother of God and mediatrix of all graces, is certainly our general in the spiritual battle against Satan. However, giving a woman an order to lead an army into battle, and making her a patron saint of soldiers and the military certainly gives the impression that women are every bit as suited for the military as men. If this is the case, it's really no stretch at all to conclude that women have just as much of a right to have full-time careers working outside the home for no other reason than she wants to. And if this is the case, then men should be househusbands if they so choose or if their wives are career wives. Don't you see how this causes confusion regarding men and women's proper places in society?
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In the words of St. Michael, "Who is like unto God?"
Who knows what reasons He had for choosing a young maiden to lead the armies of France to victory? But who are we to even try to fathom His infinite wisdom? Did He not know that His choice of St. Joan of Arc would lead to people questioning gender equality in our times? Of course. But He still chose her for reasons of His own. And of course, as always, it was the perfect and right thing to do.
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If I am not mistaken, Joan of Arc was an illiterate peasant girl, so the idea of putting her at the head of an army is quite confounding to the men that lose to her troops. As men in war, would you not feel greatly humiliated at being trounced by a young, illiterate, peasant girl? The English were, are, and always have been rather proud people. Does Henry VIII not attest to this? "He hath filled the poor and humble with good things and the rich he hast sent away empty" Also, the fact that there are hardly any other women out there like to St. Joan of Arc quite simply proves the fact of an exception and not a usual circuмstance. You are going to dissapoint a lot of little girls and ruin their dreams if you tell each of them they can be another St. Joan. If you want greatness, become humble. I've seen humility be profitable in my (short) time, even if you don't realize it 'til years later.
Another thing, if people are talking about "gender equality" and appying "gender" to people, yall should all go and study some English! "Words have a gender, people have a sex". Now, if we are going to speak of what words we can use to describe ourselves, then I'm a trans-literate tri-racial supra- normal libral-heabro-phoeb Vetus Ordo Catholic. Pretty fancy, yea? However, I can't change my gender, because I don't have one and neither do you! I can't change my sex either, since the fundamental chromosomes are impossible to modify.
It's sad... people want to play politics and attempt to side-step morality but they can't even speak their own mother tongue correctly! Maybe the reason folks don't seem to have any real logic is because they never learned the meaning of the words they're using. Maybe it's like the e-card: "I don't always know what a big words mean, but I like using them because it makes me feel so photosynthesis." Of course, at this point it also applies to the small words.
To close, I must agree with jvk. Who are we to question God when we can't even begin to speak correctly? If people are too stupid to even see what is and is not natural (or don't want to see), what makes you think they can be reasoned with? What makes you think they actually care what a God they don't believe in has to say on the matter? Most of these people wouldn't be able to accept that a fish living out of water is the exception and not the rule if it fits their fancy. And that is the point, St. Joan was an exception and not a norm. Yes, everyone has the potential to be a Saint, but not everyone chooses to be. We have it in our power to adhere to a belief even if we don't FEEL like we believe in it. That is what it means to trust, that is what it sometimes means to put faith in a Supernatural Mystery. We have the power to change our own minds and beliefs if we so choose, it's just a matter of how much we wish to commit to those changes. "I do what is hard today so that it shall be easy tomorrow" - Aristotle (?) Those who really want the truth shall continue to search, even if they don't find the answer right away.
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If I am not mistaken, Joan of Arc was an illiterate peasant girl, so the idea of putting her at the head of an army is quite confounding to the men that lose to her troops. As men in war, would you not feel greatly humiliated at being trounced by a young, illiterate, peasant girl? The English were, are, and always have been rather proud people. Does Henry VIII not attest to this? "He hath filled the poor and humble with good things and the rich he hast sent away empty" Also, the fact that there are hardly any other women out there like to St. Joan of Arc quite simply proves the fact of an exception and not a usual circuмstance. You are going to dissapoint a lot of little girls and ruin their dreams if you tell each of them they can be another St. Joan. If you want greatness, become humble. I've seen humility be profitable in my (short) time, even if you don't realize it 'til years later.
Another thing, if people are talking about "gender equality" and appying "gender" to people, yall should all go and study some English! "Words have a gender, people have a sex". Now, if we are going to speak of what words we can use to describe ourselves, then I'm a trans-literate tri-racial supra- normal libral-heabro-phoeb Vetus Ordo Catholic. Pretty fancy, yea? However, I can't change my gender, because I don't have one and neither do you! I can't change my sex either, since the fundamental chromosomes are impossible to modify.
It's sad... people want to play politics and attempt to side-step morality but they can't even speak their own mother tongue correctly! Maybe the reason folks don't seem to have any real logic is because they never learned the meaning of the words they're using. Maybe it's like the e-card: "I don't always know what a big words mean, but I like using them because it makes me feel so photosynthesis." Of course, at this point it also applies to the small words.
To close, I must agree with jvk. Who are we to question God when we can't even begin to speak correctly? If people are too stupid to even see what is and is not natural (or don't want to see), what makes you think they can be reasoned with? What makes you think they actually care what a God they don't believe in has to say on the matter? Most of these people wouldn't be able to accept that a fish living out of water is the exception and not the rule if it fits their fancy. And that is the point, St. Joan was an exception and not a norm. Yes, everyone has the potential to be a Saint, but not everyone chooses to be. We have it in our power to adhere to a belief even if we don't FEEL like we believe in it. That is what it means to trust, that is what it sometimes means to put faith in a Supernatural Mystery. We have the power to change our own minds and beliefs if we so choose, it's just a matter of how much we wish to commit to those changes. "I do what is hard today so that it shall be easy tomorrow" - Aristotle (?) Those who really want the truth shall continue to search, even if they don't find the answer right away.
Your paragraph-long rant about my supposed misuse of the word "gender" is nothing but a useless strawman argument to shut down my point. If I'm too stupid to even use English properly, then what business do I have questioning St. Joan of Arc as an apparent feminist role model, right? It would serve you better to stay on topic and avoid being a smartass in your arguments.
As for the case that she is just an exception to the rule and not the ideal, that may be true. However, why is she a patron saint of soldiers and the military if she's supposed to be such an outlier? Doesn't making her patron saint of soldiers create the impression that she is an ideal soldier? Does that not cross the line regarding men and women's proper roles in society?
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In the words of St. Michael, "Who is like unto God?"
Who knows what reasons He had for choosing a young maiden to lead the armies of France to victory? But who are we to even try to fathom His infinite wisdom? Did He not know that His choice of St. Joan of Arc would lead to people questioning gender equality in our times? Of course. But He still chose her for reasons of His own. And of course, as always, it was the perfect and right thing to do.
You're right. She was chosen to spread gender equality. I was being too judgemental in my criticism of women's rights. I let my patriarchal ideology deny the fact that women can do whatever they want, and so can men. We are all the same after all.
And this is completely fine and natural
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What are you so grouchy about? You took my reply completely out of context.
A patron saint is someone we can pray to, and ask for their intercession or protection. For example, St. Gerard is the patron saint of expectant mothers. Based on your logic, that means that men should then be able to become pregnant. I don't think that's the case!
No, rather, expectant mothers pray for his intercession during difficult pregnancies because he has a special interest in their welfare. Just as St Joan has a special interest in the protection of soldiers, it doesn't necessary follow that women should BE soldiers. '
St. Nicholas is the patron saint of children. But that doesn't mean all children should act like holy, venerable Bishops.
St. Aloysius is the patron saint of youth. So are they all to be altar boys?
Oh--another--St Barbara is a patron saint of one branch of the militia. The Catholic soldiers in Ohio 100+ years ago used to wear her medals during battle, thus beseeching her protection.
St. Camillus is the patron saint of nurses. He used to be a soldier. That doesn't mean men should be nurses!
I'm sure there are many other patron saints whose roles cross over. It doesn't mean that gender roles in society should cross over! It just means that there are many saints in Heaven who would be glad to help us, no matter if we're men or women.
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And as a side note, PLEASE do not think I'm a supporter of women's rights! Or women in the military, or any of that disgusting stuff. As a matter of principle on the matter, I'm not even registered to vote because I don't think that women should. I think it's the men's job to choose the leaders of the society, the women's is to raise good, wise, devout, Catholic men who will choose good leaders.
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Your paragraph-long rant about my supposed misuse of the word "gender" is nothing but a useless strawman argument to shut down my point. If I'm too stupid to even use English properly, then what business do I have questioning St. Joan of Arc as an apparent feminist role model, right? It would serve you better to stay on topic and avoid being a smartass in your arguments.
My apologies for being a smartass, but that is certainly the way my words come out most of the time. Most especially so if they are printed as they are thought, without a proper draft and/or revision. In any case, that really is one sorry excuse of a post, isn't it? If only it could be deleted I would have!
It would serve you better to stay on topic...
As for the case that she is just an exception to the rule and not the ideal, that may be true. However, why is she a patron saint of soldiers and the military if she's supposed to be such an outlier? Doesn't making her patron saint of soldiers create the impression that she is an ideal soldier? Does that not cross the line regarding men and women's proper roles in society?
Ok. I'll try to stay on topic.
So, what makes you thik that St. Joan is not an ideal soldier? Are you denying that she is? Personally, I believe her to be a good example of what qualities a soldier should have: Faith, Courage, Loyalty, Obedience.
Faith, to believe in God and the mission he gave her to do. Courage, to leave the safety and comforts of home for the battlefields at a tender age and lead armies when the men who should have been taking command refused to. Loyalty and Obediance, because she fought for her king and country when all the other "generals" wouldn't budge, took the cities she was ordered to and did everything for the common good of her soul, king and country, and refused anything to the contrary.
Just as the Jews lost their special position, which was taken by the Gentiles when they rejected Christ, so to wil men likely lose their place in life if they shirk their proper responsibility. St. Joan of Arc is probably more then just an example of whata soldier should be, she may even be a warning to the men of what displacement awaits them if they don't rise to the occasion.
What jvk said above about patron saints in the above post is pretty good. Another thing to consider is what it means to be a patron. Most often, in American English, the word is used to refer to one who gives support, which is usually of a monetary form. In this case, why should St. Joan not be a patron of soldiers? If one would pray for her intercession, maybe she can obtain for them the graces needed to be a good soldier. As a commanderess, soldier and Saint, why would she not be interested in helping her fellow Christian troops?
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Here is more food for thought:
I don't rightly remember what war it was... (WW2?) but Poland was being invaded by Russia and all their manpower was spent and destroyed on the battlefield. The atheistic Russian onslaught threatened to over-run Catholic Poland. In order to save their country from the pagans, young girls and older women picked up arms and defended their land, driving the Russians back, though with much blood shed.
Surely, St. Joan of Arc would have been an inspiration for some of these women (who were drafted?) to fight with all they had. If these women and girls had not sacrificed themselves, what horrid fate would have befallen their land?
Also, what a humiliation for Russia to be beaten by women! Some men, huh? But that is what happens when a woman HAS to fight and has God on her side!
I think that in the case of both Joan of Arc and the women of Poland, it was a matter of preserving Faith, culture, and the safety of the Motherland.
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I think that in the case of both Joan of Arc and the women of Poland, it was a matter of preserving Faith, culture, and the safety of the Motherland.
I agree. In wasn't about feminism, or equal rights, at all. It's the evil in the modern world that has twisted the noble ideals of the past into the current feminist idealogy.
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Actually she chose male clothing for a very important reason and that was to protect her modesty. Men could have easily forced themselves on her if she wore female clothing. Female clothing is very delicate and certainly wouldn't hold up in an army camp. She always slept fully clothed. St Joan of Arc was a very pious woman. She abhorred impurity. She famously chased off prostitutes and adulterers from the army's camp with her sword. Hardly a woman I would expect feminists to make an icon. A lot of groups try to claim Catholic saints. Even communist used Joan in their propaganda.
Saint of Joan of Arc is the patron saint of soldiers because she was the greatest knight of all time. It is hard for many to believe that a small and delicate woman could be the greatest knight of all time. But God willed it and it was done.
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What are you so grouchy about? You took my reply completely out of context.
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have been so rude and sardonic. I just had a bad day, as is usual in my pathetic life. Please pray for me that it will get better someday.
A patron saint is someone we can pray to, and ask for their intercession or protection. For example, St. Gerard is the patron saint of expectant mothers. Based on your logic, that means that men should then be able to become pregnant. I don't think that's the case!
No, rather, expectant mothers pray for his intercession during difficult pregnancies because he has a special interest in their welfare. Just as St Joan has a special interest in the protection of soldiers, it doesn't necessary follow that women should BE soldiers. '
Good point, I'll admit.
St. Nicholas is the patron saint of children. But that doesn't mean all children should act like holy, venerable Bishops.
St. Aloysius is the patron saint of youth. So are they all to be altar boys?
Oh--another--St Barbara is a patron saint of one branch of the militia. The Catholic soldiers in Ohio 100+ years ago used to wear her medals during battle, thus beseeching her protection.
St. Camillus is the patron saint of nurses. He used to be a soldier. That doesn't mean men should be nurses!
I'm sure there are many other patron saints whose roles cross over. It doesn't mean that gender roles in society should cross over! It just means that there are many saints in Heaven who would be glad to help us, no matter if we're men or women.
Well it seems that St. Joan's gender role crossed over during her life, and it is glorified by her being patron saint of a similar role.
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And as a side note, PLEASE do not think I'm a supporter of women's rights! Or women in the military, or any of that disgusting stuff.
How can you justify not being a supporter of women in the military if SAINT Joan of Arc served in the military and was guided by God to do so, and is even patron saint of soldiers. And you even call it "disgusting stuff". How dare you! I'm not trying to be rude here but I'm just giving you an example of how St Joan's case makes it very difficult to argue against feminism. I hope you see how confusing it is.
As a matter of principle on the matter, I'm not even registered to vote because I don't think that women should. I think it's the men's job to choose the leaders of the society, the women's is to raise good, wise, devout, Catholic men who will choose good leaders.
Again, I apologize for being rude and framing you as an advocate of liberal gender equality. Please don't think that I'm a total jerk.
Replies are in bold.
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My apologies for being a smartass, but that is certainly the way my words come out most of the time. Most especially so if they are printed as they are thought, without a proper draft and/or revision. In any case, that really is one sorry excuse of a post, isn't it? If only it could be deleted I would have!
I apologize for being a jerk about it, though. Thank you for being more patient with me than I was with you.
Ok. I'll try to stay on topic.
So, what makes you thik that St. Joan is not an ideal soldier? Are you denying that she is? Personally, I believe her to be a good example of what qualities a soldier should have: Faith, Courage, Loyalty, Obedience.
I'm simply saying that I don't think women are the ideal sex for soldiers or any such position in the military, and I don't think the impression should be given that they are.
Faith, to believe in God and the mission he gave her to do. Courage, to leave the safety and comforts of home for the battlefields at a tender age and lead armies when the men who should have been taking command refused to. Loyalty and Obediance, because she fought for her king and country when all the other "generals" wouldn't budge, took the cities she was ordered to and did everything for the common good of her soul, king and country, and refused anything to the contrary.
Just as the Jews lost their special position, which was taken by the Gentiles when they rejected Christ, so to wil men likely lose their place in life if they shirk their proper responsibility. St. Joan of Arc is probably more then just an example of whata soldier should be, she may even be a warning to the men of what displacement awaits them if they don't rise to the occasion.
Whatever the situation, I don't think it's natural for women to be soldiers. This is obvious when you think of some of the most basic biological differences between men and women. These differences don't change, and they were created by God for a reason.
What jvk said above about patron saints in the above post is pretty good. Another thing to consider is what it means to be a patron. Most often, in American English, the word is used to refer to one who gives support, which is usually of a monetary form. In this case, why should St. Joan not be a patron of soldiers? If one would pray for her intercession, maybe she can obtain for them the graces needed to be a good soldier. As a commanderess, soldier and Saint, why would she not be interested in helping her fellow Christian troops?
It was a good point, but I still think another reason in being a patron saint is to provide an ideal for which people can strive for in each particular role.
Replies are in bold.
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So far, nobody has been able to give me a sufficient answer as to why God would guide a woman to be a general in the military? Is her case merely a misinterpreted impression of feminism, or is gender equality good after all? The world may never know... :confused:
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I think you've been given very good answers.
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I think you've been given very good answers.
True, but nobody has been able to fully distinguish the contradiction of a sanctified female soldier and how that supposedly is not in-step with feminism or gender equality.
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So far, nobody has been able to give me a sufficient answer as to why God would guide a woman to be a general in the military? Is her case merely a misinterpreted impression of feminism, or is gender equality good after all? The world may never know... :confused:
I think a few great female generals were Isabel of Spain and Marie Therese of the Austrian Empinre.
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I think a few great female generals were Isabel of Spain and Marie Therese of the Austrian Empinre.
So you think that women are just as meant for the military as men? Are women meant to be in the workforce just as much as men as well?
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So you think that women are just as meant for the military as men? Are women meant to be in the workforce just as much as men as well?
Watch out being against a woman like Isabel of Spain. She played for keeps.
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Joan stated that she carried her banner in battle and had never killed anyone,[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-44) preferring her banner "forty times" better than a sword;[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-45) and the army was always directly commanded by a nobleman, such as the Duke of Alençon for example.
So perhaps we can just say joan was really only like a cheerleader. That will fix all those butch woman wanting to take up arms. Tell them they are better suited for pom poms.
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Watch out being against a woman like Isabel of Spain. She played for keeps.
So you do think that it is just as much of a woman's place to be in the military as it is a man's?
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Joan stated that she carried her banner in battle and had never killed anyone,[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-44) preferring her banner "forty times" better than a sword;[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-45) and the army was always directly commanded by a nobleman, such as the Duke of Alençon for example.
So perhaps we can just say joan was really only like a cheerleader. That will fix all those butch woman wanting to take up arms. Tell them they are better suited for pom poms.
This theory does seem to make a lot of sense, as it seems to be in agreement with the natural order.
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Nooseph - conveniently, I was as well recently thinking about the possible complication that St. Joan of arc presents and that you described(joan being an ace in the hole for feminists). But, as I read about her life the other day, I don't think so, and I think she is quite amazing. It is somewhat mysterious, and likely way over the head of feminists and beyond the scope of this keyboard. But, the "math" does add up imo concerning St. Joan.
And, if anyone digs a bit deeper, they will find that St. Joan is not promoting what we see going on in modern female society.
I suggest that you thoroughly familiarize yourself with St. Joan(buy the authoritative/traditional text(s) on her life) and when that conversation comes up with feminists, you can in all charity accurately explain who she was and why she is exalted by God. I think you ought to develop a devotion to St. Joan in order to strengthen your arguments. Because, I don't disagree with them, and I don't think St. Joan would either. Remember, she did all of this because of supernatural visions. If the visions had not been, she would have been at home spinning if I recall correctly.
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So you do think that it is just as much of a woman's place to be in the military as it is a man's?
No, but I am saying when the circuмstances place them there then their enemies should beware.
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Nooseph - conveniently, I was as well recently thinking about the possible complication that St. Joan of arc presents and that you described(joan being an ace in the hole for feminists). But, as I read about her life the other day, I don't think so, and I think she is quite amazing. It is somewhat mysterious, and likely way over the head of feminists and beyond the scope of this keyboard. But, the "math" does add up imo concerning St. Joan.
And, if anyone digs a bit deeper, they will find that St. Joan is not promoting what we see going on in modern female society.
I suggest that you thoroughly familiarize yourself with St. Joan(buy the authoritative/traditional text(s) on her life) and when that conversation comes up with feminists, you can in all charity accurately explain who she was and why she is exalted by God. I think you ought to develop a devotion to St. Joan in order to strengthen your arguments. Because, I don't disagree with them, and I don't think St. Joan would either. Remember, she did all of this because of supernatural visions. If the visions had not been, she would have been at home spinning if I recall correctly.
Which websites/books have you read about St. Joan? Although I understand the part about her being similar to a cheerleader, I still think she seems to be an exalted military woman most peoples' eyes, and her being the patron saint of similar roles doesn't help much in this regard.
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oan was the daughter of Jacques d'Arc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_d%27Arc) and Isabelle Romée (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabelle_Rom%C3%A9e)[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-27) in Domrémy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domr%C3%A9my-la-Pucelle), a village which was then in the French part of the duchy of Bar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Bar).[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-28) Joan's parents owned about 50 acres (20 hectares) of land and her father supplemented his farming work with a minor position as a village official, collecting taxes and heading the local watch.[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-29) They lived in an isolated patch of eastern France that remained loyal to the French crown despite being surrounded by pro-Burgundian lands. Several local raids occurred during her childhood and on one occasion her village was burned. Joan was illiterate and it is believed that her letters were dictated by her to scribes and she signed her letters with the help of others.[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-30)
At her trial, Joan stated that she was about nineteen years old, which implies she thought she was born around 1412. She later testified that she experienced her first vision in 1425 at the age of 13, when she was in her "father's garden"[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-31) and saw visions of figures she identified as Saint Michael (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)), Saint Catherine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Alexandria), and Saint Margaret (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Margaret_the_Virgin), who told her to drive out the English and bring the Dauphin to Reims for his coronation. She said she cried when they left, as they were so beautiful.[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-32)
At the age of sixteen, she asked a relative named Durand Lassois to take her to the nearby town of Vaucouleurs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaucouleurs), where she petitioned the garrison commander, Robert de Baudricourt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_Baudricourt), for an armed escort to bring her to the French Royal Court at Chinon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinon). Baudricourt's sarcastic response did not deter her.[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-33) She returned the following January and gained support from two of Baudricourt's soldiers: Jean de Metz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Metz)and Bertrand de Poulengy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_de_Poulengy).[34] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-Nullification-34) According to Jean de Metz, she told him that "I must be at the King's side ... there will be no help (for the kingdom) if not from me. Although I would rather have remained spinning [wool] at my mother's side ... yet must I go and must I do this thing, for my Lord wills that I do so."[35] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-35) Under the auspices of Metz and Poulengy, she was given a second meeting, where she made a prediction about a military reversal at the Battle of Rouvray (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Herrings) near Orléans several days before messengers arrived to report it.[36] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-36) According to the Journal du Siége d’Orléans, which portrays Joan as a miraculous figure, Joan came to know of the battle through "grace divine" while tending her flocks in Lorraine and used this divine revelation to persuade Baudricort to take her to the Dauphin.[37] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#cite_note-37)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Maison_natale_Jeanne_d%27Arc_023.jpg/220px-Maison_natale_Jeanne_d%27Arc_023.jpg)
Joan's birthplace in Domrémy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domr%C3%A9my-la-Pucelle) is now a museum. The village church where she attended Mass is on the right behind the trees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc