Author Topic: St. Joan of arc and feminism (Read 5495 times)

Nooseph Polten · « **on:** July 17, 2017, 05:26:55 PM »

I always thought that men and women are meant to fulfill different roles in society. Men are the heads of families and communities, while women are the hearts of them. Men must work to financially support the family, while women must work in the household to care for it and nurture the children. A good example of this is the Holy Family. Men should fight in wars to defend their country if necessary, while women should not. This seems obvious since men are the physically stronger sex, and are,in general, stronger than women. These principles also seem clear, because women are the ones that bear offspring.

There is a diabolical conspiracy these days that attempts to make men and women the same in every way. This ideology is opposed to common sense and seems to be against the teaching of the Church. I have heard many sermons in which priests spoke against it, and even remember a sermon by Fr. Roberts in which he preached against feminism said something along the lines of "Women are not meant to carry AK-47s, and run out onto the battlefield. How disgusting!" However, the sanctity of St. Joan of Arc seems to contradict this.

St. Joan of Arc was a women and was told by God to lead troops into battle, which she did several times, and is praised for this. She is the(or one of the) patron saint of soldiers, and there are many Catholic images of her wearing battle armor and leading her soldiers into battle. I think that one of the organizations for women in the U.S. military is named after St. Joan of Arc. If God created men and women different, then why did he guide a women to do a job that is obviously meant for a man? How could there be a substantial difference in the roles of men and women if this is the case? God cannot deceive, after all, and she is a saint of the Church. Is it perfectly fine for a woman to engage in military combat? Do women have just as much of a right to work outside the home as men? Are men and women not so different after all?

jvk · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2017, 06:31:38 AM »

I'm not going to attempt to dive into a theological discussion on St Joan of Arc, or even attempt to try to figure out why God used her to save France; however, I will say that Bp. Williamson says often, "If the man won't do it (be a man), the woman will." There is quite a bit of truth to that....

Nooseph Polten · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2017, 09:28:45 AM »

Quote from: jvk on July 18, 2017, 06:31:38 AM

I'm not going to attempt to dive into a theological discussion on St Joan of Arc, or even attempt to try to figure out why God used her to save France; however, I will say that Bp. Williamson says often, "If the man won't do it (be a man), the woman will." There is quite a bit of truth to that....

But why would God raise up a woman to do the job, and not a man? Why would He send the message that a woman is supposed to do this? Why create the appearance that the roles of women and men are the same? Is her case merely an aberration or are women and men pretty much the same after all?

poche · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2017, 12:55:02 AM »

God choosese who He wills for what He wants. Many times he chooses the most unlikely person to accomplish things so that we do not become proud and thisk it was us that did it.

shin · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2017, 04:07:05 AM »

FWIW. God will often choose people powerless and completely unsuited to various tasks. This we can see for example, with the apostles, common fishermen, with David vs. Goliath, with Noah building an Ark, with Abraham in eldest age having children, and so forth. He does this to demonstrates that it was not by the natural power of a person that one thing or another was accomplished -- In St. Joan's case, putting an end to the Hundred Years' war.

They're an example of the work of God.

Are Abraham and Sarah an example that you should wait till you're 90-100 to have children? Is Noah an example that everyone should ordinarily build giant boats in the middle of dry land? Or David an example that featherweights should go fight to the death vs. heavyweights?

No. Therefore the exceptional nature of the matter shows it's the work of God, His direct intervention. What was accomplished was by the power of God, St. Joan was the sign this was the case because she was just a young maiden, for whom leading an army to success in war was not something she could in any way accomplish, or something at all reasonable a circuмstance to place a young maiden in, save by divine fiat or one might suppose the most unusual and hard to imagine absolute necessity.

Whenever she did things that were not normally proper for her state it was with proper extenuating circuмstances, and in a way that still was not intrinsically immoral, but properly exceptional however unusual.

That modern people raised in a degenerate society take her as a role model for various immoral actions and roles for women is their own fault.

Remember that God designed the Church, government, and the family, and everything inbetween all to be patriarchies. Patriarchy is good. You'll find the natural roles more surviving in places where corrupt entertainment has not filtered in as greatly, much criticized for it Middle Eastern countries, etc.

Nooseph Polten · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2017, 04:00:19 PM »

Quote from: shin on July 19, 2017, 04:07:05 AM

FWIW. God will often choose people powerless and completely unsuited to various tasks. This we can see for example, with the apostles, common fishermen, with David vs. Goliath, with Noah building an Ark, with Abraham in eldest age having children, and so forth. He does this to demonstrates that it was not by the natural power of a person that one thing or another was accomplished -- In St. Joan's case, putting an end to the Hundred Years' war.

They're an example of the work of God.

Are Abraham and Sarah an example that you should wait till you're 90-100 to have children? Is Noah an example that everyone should ordinarily build giant boats in the middle of dry land? Or David an example that featherweights should go fight to the death vs. heavyweights?

No. Therefore the exceptional nature of the matter shows it's the work of God, His direct intervention. What was accomplished was by the power of God, St. Joan was the sign this was the case because she was just a young maiden, for whom leading an army to success in war was not something she could in any way accomplish, or something at all reasonable a circuмstance to place a young maiden in, save by divine fiat or one might suppose the most unusual and hard to imagine absolute necessity.

Whenever she did things that were not normally proper for her state it was with proper extenuating circuмstances, and in a way that still was not intrinsically immoral, but properly exceptional however unusual.

That modern people raised in a degenerate society take her as a role model for various immoral actions and roles for women is their own fault.

Remember that God designed the Church, government, and the family, and everything inbetween all to be patriarchies. Patriarchy is good. You'll find the natural roles more surviving in places where corrupt entertainment has not filtered in as greatly, much criticized for it Middle Eastern countries, etc.

You made some good points. However, it seems that St. Joan of Arc makes it extremely difficult to combat feminism. If I try to say that there are different natural roles for women and men, a feminist can just say "What about St. Joan of Arc?", and I don't have much of a response to make, because there is no clear answer about this case. She can easily be used as their "ace in the hole" to promote gender equality, and it seems that there is no clear rebuttal. This is why I can't fight liberal gender equality too much, because if God is apparently fine with women serving in the military, then where is the line drawn between men's and women's proper place? Why would God make an example that contradicts them?

jvk · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2017, 06:38:57 PM »

How about this for a thought? St Joan of Arc, to my knowledge, never fought in the actual battles. She led the charges, and was at the forefront, yes, but I don't think she carried a sword for killing. At least as far as I know she never killed anyone. And then, too, she was maidenly and modest. She was feminine (not FeminIST), and by her very femininity inspired and led her soldiers to act as true Catholic men. I don't think that there was ever any rough language or swearing in her camps--certainly not in her presence! And all the soldiers attended Mass and Confession following her example.

Perhaps there is someone more knowledgeable about her life than me that could elaborate on it more.

poche · « **Reply #7 on:** July 20, 2017, 02:18:42 AM »

Joan of Arc (French: Jeanne d'Arc,^[5] IPA: [ʒan daʁk]; 6 January c. 1412^[6] – 30 May 1431), nicknamed "The Maid of Orléans" (French: La Pucelle d'Orléans), is considered a heroine of France for her role during the Lancastrian phase of the Hundred Years' War and was canonized as a Roman Catholic saint. Joan of Arc was born to Jacques d'Arc and Isabelle Romée, a peasant family, at Domrémy in north-east France. Joan said she received visions of the Archangel Michael, Saint Margaret, and Saint Catherine of Alexandria instructing her to support Charles VII and recover France from English domination late in the Hundred Years' War. The uncrowned King Charles VII sent Joan to the siege of Orléans as part of a relief mission. She gained prominence after the siege was lifted only nine days later. Several additional swift victories led to Charles VII's coronation at Reims. This long-awaited event boosted French morale and paved the way for the final French victory.
On 23 May 1430, she was captured at Compiègne by the Burgundian faction, which was allied with the English. She was later handed over to the English^[7] and put on trial by the pro-English Bishop of Beauvais Pierre Cauchon on a variety of charges.^[8] After Cauchon declared her guilty she was burned at the stake on 30 May 1431, dying at about nineteen years of age.^[9]
In 1456, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined the trial, debunked the charges against her, pronounced her innocent, and declared her a martyr.^[9] In the 16th century she became a symbol of the Catholic League, and in 1803 she was declared a national symbol of France by the decision of Napoleon Bonaparte.^[10] She was beatifiedin 1909 and canonized in 1920. Joan of Arc is one of the nine secondary patron saints of France, along with Saint Denis, Saint Martin of Tours, Saint Louis, Saint Michael, Saint Rémi, Saint Petronilla, Saint Radegund and Saint Thérèse of Lisieux.
Joan of Arc has remained a popular figure in literature, painting, sculpture, and other cultural works since the time of her death, and many famous writers, filmmakers and composers have created works about her. Cultural depictions of herhave continued in films, theater, television, video games, music, and performances to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

Nooseph Polten · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2017, 05:33:26 PM »

Quote from: jvk on July 19, 2017, 06:38:57 PM

How about this for a thought? St Joan of Arc, to my knowledge, never fought in the actual battles. She led the charges, and was at the forefront, yes, but I don't think she carried a sword for killing. At least as far as I know she never killed anyone.

So you think women should be commanders or generals in the military?

jvk · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2017, 08:55:56 PM »

I think most women are better fitted to be at home baking cookies and changing diapers.

I think that St. Joan of Arc was called by God to fulfill a special mission, which she did in as feminine a way as possible. All women are called to sanctity. Some as wives and mothers, others as nuns, and others as single women. All women are called to fulfill their God-given gender roles in a modest manner, imitating the Blessed Mother as much as they can. And St. Joan of Arc obviously did this or the church would not have declared her a saint.

Radical Feminists are evil women spewing their liberal poison everywhere, desecrating the holy and sacred calling of motherhood. And they have obviously spilled their poison over onto the Saints, now, too.
:soapbox:

poche · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2017, 10:38:20 PM »

The Hundred Years' War had begun in 1337 as an inheritance dispute over the French throne, interspersed with occasional periods of relative peace. Nearly all the fighting had taken place in France, and the English army's use of chevauchée tactics (destructive "scorched earth" raids) had devastated the economy.^[11] The French populationhad not recovered to its size previous to the Black Death of the mid-14th century, and its merchants were isolated from foreign markets. Prior to the appearance of Joan of Arc, the English had nearly achieved their goal of a dual monarchy under English control and the French army had not achieved any major victories for a generation. In the words of DeVries, "The kingdom of France was not even a shadow of its thirteenth-century prototype."^[12]
The French king at the time of Joan's birth, Charles VI, suffered from bouts of insanity^[13] and was often unable to rule. The king's brother Louis, Duke of Orléans, and the king's cousin John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy, quarreled over the regency of France and the guardianship of the royal children. This dispute included accusations that Louis was having an extramarital affair with the queen, Isabeau of Bavaria, and allegations that John the Fearless kidnapped the royal children.^[14] The conflict climaxed with the assassination of the Duke of Orléans in 1407 on the orders of the Duke of Burgundy.^[15]^[16]
The young Charles of Orléans succeeded his father as duke and was placed in the custody of his father-in-law, the Count of Armagnac. Their faction became known as the "Armagnac" faction, and the opposing party led by the Duke of Burgundy was called the "Burgundian faction". Henry V of England took advantage of these internal divisions when he invaded the kingdom in 1415, winning a dramatic victory at Agincourt on 25 October and subsequently capturing many northern French towns.^[17] In 1418 Paris was taken by the Burgundians, who massacred the Count of Armagnac and about 2,500 of his followers.^[18] The future French king, Charles VII, assumed the title of Dauphin—the heir to the throne—at the age of fourteen, after all four of his older brothers had died in succession.^[19] His first significant official act was to conclude a peace treaty with the Duke of Burgundy in 1419. This ended in disaster when Armagnac partisans αssαssιnαtҽd John the Fearless during a meeting under Charles's guarantee of protection. The new duke of Burgundy, Philip the Good, blamed Charles for the murder and entered into an alliance with the English. The allied forces conquered large sections of France.^[20]
In 1420 the queen of France, Isabeau of Bavaria, signed the Treaty of Troyes, which granted the succession of the French throne to Henry V and his heirs instead of her son Charles. This agreement revived suspicions that the Dauphin may have been the illegitimate product of Isabeau's rumored affair with the late duke of Orléans rather than the son of King Charles VI.^[21] Henry V and Charles VI died within two months of each other in 1422, leaving an infant, Henry VI of England, the nominal monarch of both kingdoms. Henry V's brother, John of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Bedford, acted as regent.^[22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

Nooseph Polten · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2017, 04:29:50 PM »

Quote from: jvk on July 20, 2017, 08:55:56 PM

I think most women are better fitted to be at home baking cookies and changing diapers.

I think that St. Joan of Arc was called by God to fulfill a special mission, which she did in as feminine a way as possible. All women are called to sanctity. Some as wives and mothers, others as nuns, and others as single women. All women are called to fulfill their God-given gender roles in a modest manner, imitating the Blessed Mother as much as they can. And St. Joan of Arc obviously did this or the church would not have declared her a saint.

Radical Feminists are evil women spewing their liberal poison everywhere, desecrating the holy and sacred calling of motherhood. And they have obviously spilled their poison over onto the Saints, now, too.
:soapbox:

So if most(if any) women are not supposed to be soldiers or generals in the military, why is St. Joan of Arc one of the patron saints of soldiers?

poche · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2017, 11:27:12 PM »

Quote from: Nooseph Polten on July 21, 2017, 04:29:50 PM

So if most(if any) women are not supposed to be soldiers or generals in the military, why is St. Joan of Arc one of the patron saints of soldiers?

Because she lived the will of God in her life and just as she led the soldiers of France so also does she by her intercession lead our soldiers to Heaven if they live the holiness that God calls them to.

poche · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2017, 11:27:52 PM »

By the time Joan of Arc began to influence events in 1429, nearly all of northern France and some parts of the southwest were under Anglo-Burgundian control. The English controlled Paris and Rouen while the Burgundian faction controlled Reims, which had served as the traditional coronation site for French kings since 816. This was an important consideration since neither claimant to the throne of France had been officially crowned yet. In 1428 the English had begun the siege of Orléans, one of the few remaining cities still loyal to Charles VII and an important objective since it held a strategic position along the Loire River, which made it the last obstacle to an assault on the remainder of the French heartland. In the words of one modern historian, "On the fate of Orléans hung that of the entire kingdom."^[23] No one was optimistic that the city could long withstand the siege.^[24] For generations, there had been prophecies in France which promised France would be saved by a virgin from the "borders of Lorraine" "who would work miracles" and "that France will be lost by a woman and shall thereafter be restored by a virgin".^[25] The second prophecy predicating France would be "lost" by a woman was taken to refer to Isabeau's role in signing the Treaty of Troyes.^[26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

Nooseph Polten · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2017, 03:49:17 PM »

Quote from: poche on July 21, 2017, 11:27:12 PM

Because she lived the will of God in her life and just as she led the soldiers of France so also does she by her intercession lead our soldiers to Heaven if they live the holiness that God calls them to.

But why would God will that a woman do a job that is traditionally meant for a man, thus blurring the line drawn between the proper roles of men and women?

Author Topic: St. Joan of arc and feminism (Read 5495 times)

Nooseph Polten

St. Joan of arc and feminism

jvk

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

Nooseph Polten

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

poche

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

shin

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

Nooseph Polten

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

jvk

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

poche

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

Nooseph Polten

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

jvk

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

poche

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

Nooseph Polten

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

poche

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

poche

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism

Nooseph Polten

Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism