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Author Topic: St. Joan of arc and feminism  (Read 5504 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 04:39:29 PM »
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  • Canticle of Canticles:

    "Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?"

    Our Lady is our General- not for her masculine attributes (lol) but for her sublime humility. No feminist would recognize her as an example of any kind, yet she is the most powerful created being in the Universe. God gave her Queenship over heaven and earth. She is to do battle against the devil.

    Maybe our Lord could not resist the simpleness and humility of Jean D'Arc, and  as always a paradox, showers that faithful simplicity with greatness. (Mostly spiritual, sometimes temporal, or both). Our Faith seems to be ensconced in paradox, like the Cross. If feminists REALLY knew anything about St Joan, and what attributes gave her  her God -given stature, it certainly wouldn't be to their liking. Maybe it is our responsibiliy to let them know the truth about the Maid of Orleans.


    Offline poche

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 11:31:16 PM »
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  • But why would God will that a woman do a job that is traditionally meant for a man, thus blurring the line drawn between the proper roles of men and women?
    He could do it to show that the victory that they win is  beause of Him rather than their own efforts. 


    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #17 on: July 23, 2017, 10:15:21 PM »
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  • He could do it to show that the victory that they win is  beause of Him rather than their own efforts.
    Maybe. However, it seems that having a woman lead an army into battle gives the impression that God condones and encourages be women to be commanders and soldiers in the military. It is easy to see how this blurs the line between men and women's proper places in society. And making her a patron saint of soldiers only adds to the confusion. Why would God and the Church create such confusion?
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    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #18 on: July 23, 2017, 10:32:29 PM »
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  • Canticle of Canticles:

    "Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?"

    Our Lady is our General- not for her masculine attributes (lol) but for her sublime humility. No feminist would recognize her as an example of any kind, yet she is the most powerful created being in the Universe. God gave her Queenship over heaven and earth. She is to do battle against the devil.
    Every person on this earth is called to do a certain amount of battling the devil. The Blessed Mother, being the Mother of God and mediatrix of all graces, is certainly our general in the spiritual battle against Satan. However, giving a woman an order to lead an army into battle, and making her a patron saint of soldiers and the military certainly gives the impression that women are every bit as suited for the military as men. If this is the case, it's really no stretch at all to conclude that women have just as much of a right to have full-time careers working outside the home for no other reason than she wants to. And if this is the case, then men should be househusbands if they so choose or if their wives are career wives. Don't you see how this causes confusion regarding men and women's proper places in society? 
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline jvk

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 08:53:46 PM »
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  • In the words of St. Michael, "Who is like unto God?" 

    Who knows what reasons He had for choosing a young maiden to lead the armies of France to victory?  But who are we to even try to fathom His infinite wisdom?  Did He not know that His choice of St. Joan of Arc would lead to people questioning gender equality in our times?  Of course.  But He still chose her for reasons of His own.  And of course, as always, it was the perfect and right thing to do. 


    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 01:21:33 PM »
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  • If I am not mistaken, Joan of Arc was an illiterate peasant girl, so the idea of putting her at the head of an army is quite confounding to the men that lose to her troops. As men in war, would you not feel greatly humiliated at being trounced by a young, illiterate, peasant girl? The English were, are, and always have been rather proud people. Does Henry VIII not attest to this? "He hath filled the poor and humble with good things and the rich he hast sent away empty" Also, the fact that there are hardly any other women out there like to St. Joan of Arc quite simply proves the fact of an exception and not a usual circuмstance. You are going to dissapoint a lot of little girls and ruin their dreams if you tell each of them they can be another St. Joan. If you want greatness, become humble. I've seen humility be profitable in my (short) time, even if you don't realize it 'til years later.

    Another thing, if people are talking about "gender equality" and appying "gender" to people, yall should all go and study some English! "Words have a gender, people have a sex". Now, if we are going to speak of what words we can use to describe ourselves, then I'm a trans-literate tri-racial supra- normal libral-heabro-phoeb Vetus Ordo Catholic. Pretty fancy, yea? However, I can't change my gender, because I don't have one and neither do you! I can't change my sex either, since the fundamental chromosomes are impossible to modify. 

    It's sad... people want to play politics and attempt to side-step morality but they can't even speak their own mother tongue correctly! Maybe the reason folks don't seem to have any real logic is because they never learned the meaning of the words they're using. Maybe it's like the e-card: "I don't always know what a big words mean, but I like using them because it makes me feel so photosynthesis." Of course, at this point it also applies to the small words.

    To close, I must agree with jvk. Who are we to question God when we can't even begin to speak correctly? If people are too stupid to even see what is and is not natural (or don't want to see), what makes you think they can be reasoned with? What makes you think they actually care what a God they don't believe in has to say on the matter?  Most of these people wouldn't be able to accept that a fish living out of water is the exception and not the rule if it fits their fancy. And that is the point, St. Joan was an exception and not a norm. Yes, everyone has the potential to be a Saint, but not everyone chooses to be. We have it in our power to adhere to a belief even if we don't FEEL like we believe in it. That is what it means to trust, that is what it sometimes means to put faith in a Supernatural Mystery. We have the power to change our own minds and beliefs if we so choose, it's just a matter of how much we wish to commit to those changes. "I do what is hard today so that it shall be easy tomorrow" - Aristotle (?) Those who really want the truth shall continue to search, even if they don't find the answer right away.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #21 on: July 25, 2017, 06:53:04 PM »
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  • If I am not mistaken, Joan of Arc was an illiterate peasant girl, so the idea of putting her at the head of an army is quite confounding to the men that lose to her troops. As men in war, would you not feel greatly humiliated at being trounced by a young, illiterate, peasant girl? The English were, are, and always have been rather proud people. Does Henry VIII not attest to this? "He hath filled the poor and humble with good things and the rich he hast sent away empty" Also, the fact that there are hardly any other women out there like to St. Joan of Arc quite simply proves the fact of an exception and not a usual circuмstance. You are going to dissapoint a lot of little girls and ruin their dreams if you tell each of them they can be another St. Joan. If you want greatness, become humble. I've seen humility be profitable in my (short) time, even if you don't realize it 'til years later.

    Another thing, if people are talking about "gender equality" and appying "gender" to people, yall should all go and study some English! "Words have a gender, people have a sex". Now, if we are going to speak of what words we can use to describe ourselves, then I'm a trans-literate tri-racial supra- normal libral-heabro-phoeb Vetus Ordo Catholic. Pretty fancy, yea? However, I can't change my gender, because I don't have one and neither do you! I can't change my sex either, since the fundamental chromosomes are impossible to modify.

    It's sad... people want to play politics and attempt to side-step morality but they can't even speak their own mother tongue correctly! Maybe the reason folks don't seem to have any real logic is because they never learned the meaning of the words they're using. Maybe it's like the e-card: "I don't always know what a big words mean, but I like using them because it makes me feel so photosynthesis." Of course, at this point it also applies to the small words.

    To close, I must agree with jvk. Who are we to question God when we can't even begin to speak correctly? If people are too stupid to even see what is and is not natural (or don't want to see), what makes you think they can be reasoned with? What makes you think they actually care what a God they don't believe in has to say on the matter?  Most of these people wouldn't be able to accept that a fish living out of water is the exception and not the rule if it fits their fancy. And that is the point, St. Joan was an exception and not a norm. Yes, everyone has the potential to be a Saint, but not everyone chooses to be. We have it in our power to adhere to a belief even if we don't FEEL like we believe in it. That is what it means to trust, that is what it sometimes means to put faith in a Supernatural Mystery. We have the power to change our own minds and beliefs if we so choose, it's just a matter of how much we wish to commit to those changes. "I do what is hard today so that it shall be easy tomorrow" - Aristotle (?) Those who really want the truth shall continue to search, even if they don't find the answer right away.
    Your paragraph-long rant about my supposed misuse of the word "gender" is nothing but a useless strawman argument to shut down my point. If I'm too stupid to even use English properly, then what business do I have questioning St. Joan of Arc as an apparent feminist role model, right? It would serve you better to stay on topic and avoid being a smartass in your arguments.
    As for the case that she is just an exception to the rule and not the ideal, that may be true. However, why is she a patron saint of soldiers and the military if she's supposed to be such an outlier? Doesn't making her patron saint of soldiers create the impression that she is an ideal soldier? Does that not cross the line regarding men and women's proper roles in society?
         
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #22 on: July 25, 2017, 11:19:57 PM »
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  • In the words of St. Michael, "Who is like unto God?"

    Who knows what reasons He had for choosing a young maiden to lead the armies of France to victory?  But who are we to even try to fathom His infinite wisdom?  Did He not know that His choice of St. Joan of Arc would lead to people questioning gender equality in our times?  Of course.  But He still chose her for reasons of His own.  And of course, as always, it was the perfect and right thing to do.
    You're right. She was chosen to spread gender equality. I was being too judgemental in my criticism of women's rights. I let my patriarchal ideology deny the fact that women can do whatever they want, and so can men. We are all the same after all. 
    And this is completely fine and natural
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ


    Offline jvk

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #23 on: July 26, 2017, 06:38:24 AM »
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  • What are you so grouchy about?  You took my reply completely out of context. 

    A patron saint is someone we can pray to, and ask for their intercession or protection.  For example, St. Gerard is the patron saint of expectant mothers.  Based on your logic, that means that men should then be able to become pregnant.  I don't think that's the case! 

    No, rather, expectant mothers pray for his intercession during difficult pregnancies because he has a special interest in their welfare.  Just as St Joan has a special interest in the protection of soldiers, it doesn't necessary follow that women should BE soldiers.  '

    St. Nicholas is the patron saint of children.  But that doesn't mean all children should act like holy, venerable Bishops. 

    St. Aloysius is the patron saint of youth.  So are they all to be altar boys? 

    Oh--another--St Barbara is a patron saint of one branch of the militia.  The Catholic soldiers in Ohio 100+ years ago used to wear her medals during battle, thus beseeching her protection.

    St. Camillus is the patron saint of nurses.  He used to be a soldier.  That doesn't mean men should be nurses! 

    I'm sure there are many other patron saints whose roles cross over.  It doesn't mean that gender roles in society should cross over!  It just means that there are many saints in Heaven who would be glad to help us, no matter if we're men or women.     

    ****
    And as a side note, PLEASE do not think I'm a supporter of women's rights!  Or women in the military, or any of that disgusting stuff.  As a matter of principle on the matter, I'm not even registered to vote because I don't think that women should.  I think it's the men's job to choose the leaders of the society, the women's is to raise good, wise, devout, Catholic men who will choose good leaders.   

    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #24 on: July 26, 2017, 09:39:18 AM »
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  • Your paragraph-long rant about my supposed misuse of the word "gender" is nothing but a useless strawman argument to shut down my point. If I'm too stupid to even use English properly, then what business do I have questioning St. Joan of Arc as an apparent feminist role model, right? It would serve you better to stay on topic and avoid being a smartass in your arguments.
    My apologies for being a smartass, but that is certainly the way my words come out most of the time. Most especially so if they are printed as they are thought, without a proper draft and/or revision. In any case, that really is one sorry excuse of a post, isn't it? If only it could be deleted I would have!
    It would serve you better to stay on topic...
    As for the case that she is just an exception to the rule and not the ideal, that may be true. However, why is she a patron saint of soldiers and the military if she's supposed to be such an outlier? Doesn't making her patron saint of soldiers create the impression that she is an ideal soldier? Does that not cross the line regarding men and women's proper roles in society?
        

    Ok. I'll try to stay on topic.
    So, what makes you thik that St. Joan is not an ideal soldier? Are you denying that she is? Personally, I believe her to be a good example of what qualities a soldier should have: Faith, Courage, Loyalty, Obedience.
      Faith, to believe in God and the mission he gave her to do. Courage, to leave the safety and comforts of home for the battlefields at a tender age and lead armies when the men who should have been taking command refused to. Loyalty and Obediance, because she fought for her king and country when all the other "generals" wouldn't budge, took the cities she was ordered to and did everything for the common good of her soul, king and country, and refused anything to the contrary.

    Just as the Jєωs lost their special position, which was taken by the Gentiles when they rejected Christ, so to wil men likely lose their place in life if they shirk their proper responsibility. St. Joan of Arc is probably more then just an example of whata soldier should be, she may even be a warning to the men of what displacement awaits them if they don't rise to the occasion.


    What jvk said above about patron saints in the above post is pretty good. Another thing to consider is what it means to be a patron. Most often, in American English, the word is used to refer to one who gives support, which is usually of a monetary form. In this case, why should St. Joan not be a patron of soldiers? If one would pray for her intercession, maybe she can obtain for them the graces needed to be a good soldier. As a commanderess, soldier and Saint, why would she not be interested in helping her fellow Christian troops?
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Student of Qi

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #25 on: July 26, 2017, 09:55:15 AM »
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  • Here is more food for thought:

    I don't rightly remember what war it was... (WW2?) but Poland was being invaded by Russia and all their manpower was spent and destroyed on the battlefield. The atheistic Russian onslaught threatened to over-run Catholic Poland. In order to save their country from the pagans, young girls and older women picked up arms and defended their land, driving the Russians back, though with much blood shed.

    Surely, St. Joan of Arc would have been an inspiration for some of these women (who were drafted?) to fight with all they had. If these women and girls had not sacrificed themselves, what horrid fate would have befallen their land? 
    Also, what a humiliation for Russia to be beaten by women! Some men, huh? But that is what happens when a woman HAS to fight and has God on her side!


    I think that in the case of both Joan of Arc and the women of Poland, it was a matter of preserving Faith, culture, and the safety of the Motherland.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll


    Offline jvk

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #26 on: July 26, 2017, 01:19:47 PM »
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  • I think that in the case of both Joan of Arc and the women of Poland, it was a matter of preserving Faith, culture, and the safety of the Motherland.
    I agree.  In wasn't about feminism, or equal rights, at all.  It's the evil in the modern world that has twisted the noble ideals of the past into the current feminist idealogy.

    Offline ClarkSmith

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #27 on: July 26, 2017, 06:12:07 PM »
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  • Actually she chose male clothing for a very important reason and that was to protect her modesty. Men could have easily forced themselves on her if she wore female clothing. Female clothing is very delicate and certainly wouldn't hold up in an army camp. She always slept fully clothed. St Joan of Arc was a very pious woman. She abhorred  impurity.  She  famously chased off prostitutes and adulterers from the army's camp with her sword. Hardly a woman I would expect feminists to make an icon. A lot of groups try to claim Catholic saints. Even communist used Joan in their propaganda.   

    Saint of Joan of Arc is the patron saint of soldiers because she was the greatest knight of all time. It is hard for many to believe that a small and delicate woman could be the greatest knight of all time. But God willed it and it was done. 

     

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #28 on: July 27, 2017, 12:19:53 AM »
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  • What are you so grouchy about?  You took my reply completely out of context.

    I'm sorry. I shouldn't have been so rude and sardonic. I just had a bad day, as is usual in my pathetic life. Please pray for me that it will get better someday. 

    A patron saint is someone we can pray to, and ask for their intercession or protection.  For example, St. Gerard is the patron saint of expectant mothers.  Based on your logic, that means that men should then be able to become pregnant.  I don't think that's the case!

    No, rather, expectant mothers pray for his intercession during difficult pregnancies because he has a special interest in their welfare.  Just as St Joan has a special interest in the protection of soldiers, it doesn't necessary follow that women should BE soldiers.  '

    Good point, I'll admit.

    St. Nicholas is the patron saint of children.  But that doesn't mean all children should act like holy, venerable Bishops.

    St. Aloysius is the patron saint of youth.  So are they all to be altar boys?

    Oh--another--St Barbara is a patron saint of one branch of the militia.  The Catholic soldiers in Ohio 100+ years ago used to wear her medals during battle, thus beseeching her protection.

    St. Camillus is the patron saint of nurses.  He used to be a soldier.  That doesn't mean men should be nurses!

    I'm sure there are many other patron saints whose roles cross over.  It doesn't mean that gender roles in society should cross over!  It just means that there are many saints in Heaven who would be glad to help us, no matter if we're men or women.   

    Well it seems that St. Joan's gender role crossed over during her life, and it is glorified by her being patron saint of a similar role.

    ****
    And as a side note, PLEASE do not think I'm a supporter of women's rights!  Or women in the military, or any of that disgusting stuff.

    How can you justify not being a supporter of women in the military if SAINT Joan of Arc served in the military and was guided by God to do so, and is even patron saint of soldiers. And you even call it "disgusting stuff". How dare you!     I'm not trying to be rude here but I'm just giving you an example of how St Joan's case makes it very difficult to argue against feminism. I hope you see how confusing it is. 

     As a matter of principle on the matter, I'm not even registered to vote because I don't think that women should.  I think it's the men's job to choose the leaders of the society, the women's is to raise good, wise, devout, Catholic men who will choose good leaders.  

    Again, I apologize for being rude and framing you as an advocate of liberal gender equality. Please don't think that I'm a total jerk. 
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    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: St. Joan of arc and feminism
    « Reply #29 on: July 27, 2017, 12:42:25 AM »
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  • My apologies for being a smartass, but that is certainly the way my words come out most of the time. Most especially so if they are printed as they are thought, without a proper draft and/or revision. In any case, that really is one sorry excuse of a post, isn't it? If only it could be deleted I would have!
    I apologize for being a jerk about it, though. Thank you for being more patient with me than I was with you. 
    Ok. I'll try to stay on topic.
    So, what makes you thik that St. Joan is not an ideal soldier? Are you denying that she is? Personally, I believe her to be a good example of what qualities a soldier should have: Faith, Courage, Loyalty, Obedience.
      I'm simply saying that I don't think women are the ideal sex for soldiers or any such position in the military, and I don't think the impression should be given that they are. 
      Faith, to believe in God and the mission he gave her to do. Courage, to leave the safety and comforts of home for the battlefields at a tender age and lead armies when the men who should have been taking command refused to. Loyalty and Obediance, because she fought for her king and country when all the other "generals" wouldn't budge, took the cities she was ordered to and did everything for the common good of her soul, king and country, and refused anything to the contrary.

    Just as the Jєωs lost their special position, which was taken by the Gentiles when they rejected Christ, so to wil men likely lose their place in life if they shirk their proper responsibility. St. Joan of Arc is probably more then just an example of whata soldier should be, she may even be a warning to the men of what displacement awaits them if they don't rise to the occasion.

    Whatever the situation, I don't think it's natural for women to be soldiers. This is obvious when you think of some of the most basic biological differences between men and women. These differences don't change, and they were created by God for a reason.

    What jvk said above about patron saints in the above post is pretty good. Another thing to consider is what it means to be a patron. Most often, in American English, the word is used to refer to one who gives support, which is usually of a monetary form. In this case, why should St. Joan not be a patron of soldiers? If one would pray for her intercession, maybe she can obtain for them the graces needed to be a good soldier. As a commanderess, soldier and Saint, why would she not be interested in helping her fellow Christian troops?

    It was a good point, but I still think another reason in being a patron saint is to provide an ideal for which people can strive for in each particular role.
    Replies are in bold.
    +Truth and Justice for all+
                  JMJ