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Author Topic: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)  (Read 15901 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2024, 02:37:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    I never called you an armchair theologian. I said that I am not one.
    There's no general consensus that canonizations are unquestionable and 100% error free.  Quite the contrary; many theologians say that if there is good reason, then canonizations can be questioned.  The fact that the canonization process has developed over the years, shows that part of this is human action, which can err.


    I'm not going to re-hash this old topic, but that old thread had all sorts of good info, including quotes from popes who were distinguishing different levels of infallibility.  

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #46 on: February 22, 2024, 02:38:55 PM »
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  • There are different levels of infallibility, just like there are different levels of angels. 

    We're not debating particular saints; we are debating the LEVEL/DEGREE of the infallibility process.

    As I have explained above, there are no levels to infallibility. Something is TAUGHT infallibly or it is not (reformable). Infallibilty pertains to the act of teaching, not the content of the doctrines themselves. Doctrines are assigned dogmatic weight according to the level of teaching, not the act of teaching itself, although the highest levels of dogmatic weight are always taught with infallible teaching action.

    The levels of dogmatic weight are called theological marks. De fide is the highest level of doctrine, meaning that a teaching is of divine and Catholic Faith belonging to the Deposit of Faith.

    There are also levels of error with heresy being the worst.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #47 on: February 22, 2024, 04:48:49 PM »
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  • Ok, then the question is:  Must we believe canonizations with a “certainty of Faith” (the highest level of certainty and authority)?  No, canonizations are not a certainty and (in theory) could be questioned. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #48 on: February 22, 2024, 05:06:03 PM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #49 on: February 22, 2024, 05:31:36 PM »
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  • Magisterium Does Not Teach Canonizations are Infallible - page 1 - SSPX Resistance News - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    This is the previous thread on this topic, with all kinds of sources posted.

    Sure, keep telling yourself that.

    Pope Benedict XIV:
    Quote
    If anyone dared to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization, we shall say that he is, if not a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal to the whole Church, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of those heretics who deny the Church’s authority in canonizing saints, savoring of heresy by giving unbelievers an occasion to mock the faithful, the assertor of an erroneous opinion and liable to very grave penalties (Pope Benedict XIV: quoted by Tanquerey, Synopsis Theologiae Dogmaticae Fundamentalis, Paris, Tournai, Rome: Desclee, 1937, new edition ed. by J.B. Bord, Vol. I. p. 624, footnote 2)



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #50 on: February 22, 2024, 05:33:45 PM »
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  • Ok, then the question is:  Must we believe canonizations with a “certainty of Faith” (the highest level of certainty and authority)?  No, canonizations are not a certainty and (in theory) could be questioned.

    You create a false dichotomy, as you always have, and as most R&R do, between the "certainty of faith" and everything else being fair game to question.

    Pope Benedict XVI:
    Quote
    If anyone dared to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization, we shall say that he is, if not a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal to the whole Church, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of those heretics who deny the Church’s authority in canonizing saints, savoring of heresy by giving unbelievers an occasion to mock the faithful, the assertor of an erroneous opinion and liable to very grave penalties (Pope Benedict XIV: quoted by Tanquerey, Synopsis Theologiae Dogmaticae Fundamentalis, Paris, Tournai, Rome: Desclee, 1937, new edition ed. by J.B. Bord, Vol. I. p. 624, footnote 2)

    You're very possibly a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of heretics, and savoring of heresies, liable to very grave penalties.

    You make a mockery of the Church and the Papacy in claiming that what was proclaimed with the following formula is not protected from error:
    Quote
    For the honour of the Blessed Trinity,
    the exaltation of the Catholic faith and
    the increase of the Christian life,
    by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own,
    after due deliberation
    and frequent prayer for divine assistance,
    and having sought the counsel of many of our brother Bishops,
    we declare and define
    Blessed John XXIII and John Paul II to be Saints
    and we enroll them among the Saints,
    decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole Church.
    In the name of the Father, and of the Son,
    and of the Holy Spirit. Amen

    This explicitly hits every single note of infallibility defined at Vatican I.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #51 on: February 22, 2024, 06:50:28 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  You’re just ignoring history by acting like this topic is a black-n-white issue.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #52 on: February 22, 2024, 09:24:32 PM »
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  • Pope Benedict XIV:
    If anyone dared to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization, we shall say that he is, if not a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal to the whole Church, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of those heretics who deny the Church’s authority in canonizing saints, savoring of heresy by giving unbelievers an occasion to mock the faithful, the assertor of an erroneous opinion and liable to very grave penalties
    This is the quote that came to mind when I read this thread, but I couldn't remember it exactly nor find it.  Thank you for posting it.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #53 on: February 23, 2024, 05:09:56 AM »
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  • You create a false dichotomy, as you always have, and as most R&R do, between the "certainty of faith" and everything else being fair game to question.

    Pope Benedict XVI:
    You're very possibly a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of heretics, and savoring of heresies, liable to very grave penalties.

    You make a mockery of the Church and the Papacy in claiming that what was proclaimed with the following formula is not protected from error:
    Quote
    For the honour of the Blessed Trinity,
    the exaltation of the Catholic faith and
    the increase of the Christian life,
    by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own,
    after due deliberation
    and frequent prayer for divine assistance,
    and having sought the counsel of many of our brother Bishops,
    we declare and define
    Blessed John XXIII and John Paul II to be Saints
    and we enroll them among the Saints,
    decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole Church.
    In the name of the Father, and of the Son,
    and of the Holy Spirit. Amen

    This explicitly hits every single note of infallibility defined at Vatican I.
    Oh brother. You are confusing papal authority with papal infallibility again.

    First off, this very explicitly does *not* hit *any* note of infallibility as defined at V1 because canonizations are not a doctrine. Therefore *the dogma* of papal infallibility as defined at V1 does not apply at all, not even one puny little iota.

    Pope Benedict XIV:
    "If anyone dared to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization, we shall say that he is, if not a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal to the whole Church, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of those heretics who deny the Church’s authority in canonizing saints, savoring of heresy by giving unbelievers an occasion to mock the faithful, the assertor of an erroneous opinion and liable to very grave penalties."

    Second, the pope, Benedict XIV, very specifically decrees that the offenders are sinning against the Church's Authority, not the Church's infallibility. What you need to do is to discern the difference between papal authority and papal infallibility so as to stop confusing the matter.

    Third, in your haste to maintain a vacant chair by confusing papal authority with papal infallibility, you ignore, or act as if you ignore the fact that the entire beatification and canonization process and procedures have been replaced with the NO version, which means simply that what Pope Benedict XIV is saying does apply to NO canonizations.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #54 on: February 23, 2024, 07:27:11 AM »
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  • Pope Benedict XIV:
    "If anyone dared to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization, we shall say that he is, if not a heretic, at least temerarious, a giver of scandal to the whole Church, an insulter of the saints, a favorer of those heretics who deny the Church’s authority in canonizing saints, savoring of heresy by giving unbelievers an occasion to mock the faithful, the assertor of an erroneous opinion and liable to very grave penalties."

    Second, the pope, Benedict XIV, very specifically decrees that the offenders are sinning against the Church's Authority, not the Church's infallibility. What you need to do is to discern the difference between papal authority and papal infallibility so as to stop confusing the matter.


    He starts off saying, "If anyone dares to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization....."

    So, it's clear that he is also saying that the Pontiff cannot err in this or that canonization.

    We don't get to decide who is or is not a Saint in Heaven when a true pope has declared him/her such.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #55 on: February 23, 2024, 07:56:41 AM »
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  • He starts off saying, "If anyone dares to assert that the Pontiff had erred in this or that canonization....."

    So, it's clear that he is also saying that the Pontiff cannot err in this or that canonization.

    We don't get to decide who is or is not a Saint in Heaven when a true pope has declared him/her such.
    Yes, however he is not talking about NO canonizations - which no doubt he would roundly condemn to hell. "This or that" can only mean "this saint or that saint."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #56 on: February 23, 2024, 09:16:00 AM »
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  • Yes, however he is not talking about NO canonizations - which no doubt he would roundly condemn to hell.

    :facepalm: ... there are no words.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #57 on: February 23, 2024, 12:13:27 PM »
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  • :facepalm: ... there are no words.
    Talk about a rarity! Mark it on the calendar!
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #58 on: February 23, 2024, 02:16:31 PM »
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  • Talk about a rarity! Mark it on the calendar!

    I didn't say that I had no words, but that objectively there are no words to address something so absurd.

    It's on the level of some theory, say, where Jorge Bergoglian is really a reptilian alien from the Andromeda system.  It's so absurd that there are "no words" to "refute" this.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #59 on: February 23, 2024, 02:28:06 PM »
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  • I didn't say that I had no words, but that objectively there are no words to address something so absurd.

    It's on the level of some theory, say, where Jorge Bergoglian is really a reptilian alien from the Andromeda system.  It's so absurd that there are "no words" to "refute" this.
    You just need to work on differentiating authority from infallibility, stop making the pope out to be a man-God is a good first step I think. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse