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Author Topic: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)  (Read 15904 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2024, 01:09:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 12:51:31 PM
    None, because there’s no evidence that any had heretical views
    the process has changed throughout history, but not to the degree it did after V2.

    Let me ask you a question. If there hasn’t been a Pope for close to 70 years and all the Cardinals are laymen, how is the Papacy restored? Even if we go with the Thesis, one would still have to to hold that the New Rites of Ordination/Consecration are invalid. If that’s the case, the only solution 8s for the “Conciliar Church” to do an about face and denounce V2. But who would re-ordain/re-consecrate thousands of Bishops and priests? Invalid Thuc line clergy?

    This is an instance of the type of thought I was referring to in my last post.

    If there is not currently a pope, where does it say we need to have one "restored" before Christ returns? If there is currently a pope - assuming indeed that we "need" one when Christ returns - we don't need one "restored." 


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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #31 on: February 22, 2024, 01:20:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 22, 2024, 01:09:41 PM
    This is an instance of the type of thought I was referring to in my last post.

    If there is not currently a pope, where does it say we need to have one "restored" before Christ returns? If there is currently a pope - assuming indeed that we "need" one when Christ returns - we don't need one "restored."
    So I guess for you we’re in the end times then- or  can the Church be without a Pope for centuries or even thousands of years? How long can the Church be without a Pope until you admit it’s failed? There’s an irony here in that you have an extremely high view of the Pope/Papal infallibility but also seem to think the Church can go without a Pope for decades


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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #32 on: February 22, 2024, 01:24:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:20:13 PM
    So I guess for you we’re in the end times then- or  can the Church be without a Pope for centuries or even thousands of years? How long can the Church be without a Pope until you admit it’s failed? There’s an irony here in that you have an extremely high view of the Pope/Papal infallibility but also seem to think the Church can go without a Pope for decades

    First, where in my last post did I say that we don't have a "pope," or haven't had "popes" since John XXIII?

    I'll help you. I said this:

    Quote
    Some of us - I know I do - refer to Francis and his predecessors from John XXIII on as "popes" because they sit in the seat, most of them - I'm cutting a lot of slack to the Siri was elected crowd - having no rival claimant, so we're not dealing with a Great Schism type of situation, or popes whose claims - not whose faith - is being contested by any elector cardinals.


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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #33 on: February 22, 2024, 01:32:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 22, 2024, 01:24:34 PM
    First, where in my last post did I say that we don't have a "pope," or haven't had "popes" since John XXIII?

    I'll help you. I said this:

    You quoted a question I asked regarding the Papacy, and I don’t see the point of your response. If you don’t hold to Sedevacantism, why did you quote that post?
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #34 on: February 22, 2024, 01:37:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:20:13 PM
    So I guess for you we’re in the end times then- or  can the Church be without a Pope for centuries or even thousands of years? How long can the Church be without a Pope until you admit it’s failed? There’s an irony here in that you have an extremely high view of the Pope/Papal infallibility but also seem to think the Church can go without a Pope for decades

    Sorry. Yes, I do. I think we are in the period at the end of the age of the New Covenant dispensation. The Gospel has been preached throughout the world. We await Our Lord's return at the end of this "consummation" period. Mt. 24:14.

    The popes (magisterium) have (has) lost the guiding hand of the Holy Ghost, 2 Th. 2:7, their (its) "charism of infallibility." 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #35 on: February 22, 2024, 01:40:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:32:30 PM
    You quoted a question I asked regarding the Papacy, and I don’t see the point of your response. If you don’t hold to Sedevacantism, why did you quote that post?

    You direct a criticism at Sedes saying, "how will the papacy be restored"? So I asked, "who said the papacy had to be restored"? Or, exactly, "If there is not currently a pope, where does it say we need to have one 'restored' before Christ returns?"

    I do not see any merit in that critique of Sedevacantism - how will we get another pope?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #36 on: February 22, 2024, 01:41:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on February 22, 2024, 01:37:36 PM
    Sorry. Yes, I do. I think we are in the period at the end of the age of the New Covenant dispensation. The Gospel has been preached throughout the world. We await Our Lord's return at the end of this "consummation" period. Mt. 24:14.

    The popes (magisterium) have (has) lost the guiding hand of the Holy Ghost, 2 Th. 2:7, their (its) "charism of infallibility."
    The Gospel has not yet been spread throughout the world. There are large portions of the Middle East which have not received the Gospel( among other places)
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #37 on: February 22, 2024, 01:43:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 12:15:18 PM
    According to Van Noort, the infallibility of canonizations fall under common opinion( sententia communis)

    if we consult Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, he says common opinion


    ”is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally”

    So what you say isn’t quite right

    I highly recommend reading Dr. Lamont’s article
    I have read the article, and I disagree with it in my professional capacity. That is called "peer review" in academia.

    And I have both Van Noort and Ott right here on my desk. But I also have the Dictionaire de Théologie Catholique as well as Franzelin and Scheeben. I never said that the the exercise of papal infallibility in a canonisation is itself a teaching on the de fide level. I do not even know if it could be raised to that level since doctrina de fide pertains to the Deposit of Faith, whereas this exercise of infallibility in canonisations would seem to be a derived form from the more general infallibility belonging to the universal Magisterium (which is de fide).

    Dude, I teach this stuff for a living.
    I am not some armchair theologian. My livelihood and reputation depend on me knowing what I am talking about.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #38 on: February 22, 2024, 01:48:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:41:17 PM
    The Gospel has not yet been spread throughout the world. There are large portions of the Middle East which have not received the Gospel( among other places)
    Not correct. The Middle East was the very first region to receive the Gospel. It is the locus for several Churches sui juris:  the Melkite Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, and the Armenian Catholic Church, as well as other schismatic and heretical Churches with valid Orders and claiming apostolic succession.

    The Gospel has been preached and recdived in the Middle East. Most however have over time rejected the Good News of our Lord.
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    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #39 on: February 22, 2024, 01:48:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 22, 2024, 01:43:10 PM
    I have read the article, and I disagree with it in my professional capacity. That is called "peer review" in academia.

    And I have both Van Noort and Ott right here on my desk. But I also have the Dictionaire de Théologie Catholique as well as Franzelin and Scheeben. I never said that the the exercise of papal infallibility in a canonisation is itself a teaching on the de fide level. I do not even know if it could be raised to that level since doctrina de fide pertains to the Deposit of Faith, whereas this exercise of infallibility in canonisations would seem to be a derived form from the more general infallibility belonging to the universal Magisterium (which is de fide).

    Dude, I teach this stuff for a living.
    I am not some armchair theologian. My livelihood and reputation depend on me knowing what I am talking about.
    Fine, we disagree. Where did I say you were an armchair theologian? I simply disagree with you
    im not a theologian but I have studied theology, Latin, and Greek at various universities. 
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #40 on: February 22, 2024, 01:49:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:41:17 PM

    The Gospel has not yet been spread throughout the world. There are large portions of the Middle East which have not received the Gospel( among other places)

    I disagree with you in terms of an understanding of Mt 24:14 and what "throughout the world" means. But that is a factual disagreement, an argument about fulfillment of the principle. 

    Suppose your understanding of "throughout the world" was met tomorrow, or in a few years, or a decade. The theological argument I am making holds. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #41 on: February 22, 2024, 01:50:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 22, 2024, 01:48:22 PM
    Not correct. The Middle East was the very first region to receive the Gospel. It is the locus for several Churches sui juris:  the Melkite Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, and the Armenian Catholic Church, as well as other schismatic and heretical Churches with valid Orders and claiming apostolic succession.

    The Gospel has been preached and recdived in the Middle East. Most however have over time rejected the Good News of our Lord.
    I’m a convert from Islam. My people ( the Afghans) have never received the Gospel. The same can be said for other places in the Middle East where Islam dominates
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #42 on: February 22, 2024, 02:08:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:50:48 PM
    I’m a convert from Islam. My people ( the Afghans) have never received the Gospel. The same can be said for other places in the Middle East where Islam dominates
    The peoples of the Middle East received the Gospel in the first to third centuries. They subsequently lost it through apostasy when the heretic Arab armies of Mohammed swept across the Levant, North Africa, Mesopotamia, Persia, and on to Kashmir.

    Nestorian heretics nearly flipped China to Christian during the Tang Dynasty.

    I am sorry that Catholics of more recent centuries failed to reconnect with the Orient. The legend of Prester John was wide spread until the Renaissance. Then it collapsed and with it a zeal to return to the lands between the Jordan and the Ganges.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #43 on: February 22, 2024, 02:12:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on February 22, 2024, 01:48:27 PM
    Fine, we disagree. Where did I say you were an armchair theologian? I simply disagree with you
    im not a theologian but I have studied theology, Latin, and Greek at various universities.
    I never called you an armchair theologian. I said that I am not one.

    Christian charity, especially in light of this Lenten penitential season, demands that we lower the vitriol in this conversation.

    Pax tecuм.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #44 on: February 22, 2024, 02:31:31 PM »
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    • Quote
    The declaration is what is infallible.
    Yes, it is infallible, but not in the same way, or to the same degree as a doctrine.  There are different levels of infallibility, just like there are different levels of angels.  


    Quote
    So I ask again, which pre-Vatican II canonized saints should we call into question?
    We're not debating particular saints; we are debating the LEVEL/DEGREE of the infallibility process.  Which, historically, has gray area.
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