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Author Topic: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)  (Read 15883 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2024, 02:44:54 PM »
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    • If Jorge's the Pope, Wojtyla's a saint.  If you give me your address, I can gift one of these to you.

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #61 on: February 23, 2024, 02:46:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 23, 2024, 02:28:06 PM
    You just need to work on differentiating authority from infallibility, stop making the pope out to be a man-God is a good first step I think.

    :facepalm:  :facepalm: :facepalm: ... stated just like a Prot making a strawman out of the protection of infallibility for the papacy.  No, Popes are not guaranteed infallible every time they pass wind, but when they invoke the solemn formula of canonization, as nearly all theologians hold, they are infallible.  Theologians, and Pope Benedict XIV, were undecided only about the note to assign such grave error, whether heresy or proximate to heresy.

    You continue to pertinaciously make a mockery of the Catholic Church and the Papacy.  As I've pointed out before, you're nothing but an Old Catholic who likes the smells and bells of the Tridentine Mass (as most Old Catholics do).
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    Offline Bl Alojzije Stepinac

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #62 on: February 23, 2024, 11:47:14 PM »
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    • We all need to stop to mock, offend fellow Traditional Catholics for taking position either sedevacantism (every kind), or R & R, "bennevacantists" like Ann Barnhardt too.
    We are trying to make sense of it all. We should never take a novel position contrary to Catholic teaching (dogma, solemn decrees, encyclicals), just fit in our point of view or to trying to bind Catholic laity with something that is not still defined by true Catholic Pope, Holy Office, and other institutions of the Catholic Church. 
    We can't judge whole categories, but each priest, bishop or laymen individaully before making a conclusion or decision.
    We don't have for decades bishops with oridinary jurisdiction or theologians who can we rely on explaining these problems, we don't have unity and all know why. 
    Private or publicly expressed opinion is a opinion, not Church teaching that is binding. No matter if it comes from late archbishop Thuc, Lefevbre, bishop Sanborn, late fr Cekada, bishop Williamson. 
    It would take a supernatual miracles of God to all the people recognize and accept future pope, the Angelic Pontiff. Some of them will have to renounce opinion and attitude they have today. 
    We are not in position to make rules and conditions that would a real pope have to obey. He will know it already, he would be chosen by God one way or another and he will restore order infallibly. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #63 on: February 24, 2024, 05:14:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 23, 2024, 02:46:50 PM
    :facepalm:  :facepalm: :facepalm: ... stated just like a Prot making a strawman out of the protection of infallibility for the papacy.  No, Popes are not guaranteed infallible every time they pass wind, but when they invoke the solemn formula of canonization, as nearly all theologians hold, they are infallible.  Theologians, and Pope Benedict XIV, were undecided only about the note to assign such grave error, whether heresy or proximate to heresy.

    You continue to pertinaciously make a mockery of the Catholic Church and the Papacy.  As I've pointed out before, you're nothing but an Old Catholic who likes the smells and bells of the Tridentine Mass (as most Old Catholics do).
    You place way, way too high a value on your own opinions, many of which are altogether wrong. You give your own opinions too much weight, way too much weight.....way, way too much weight.

     Perhaps from now on, before you rant on condemning life long faithful traditional Catholics as being heretics, always strive to remember that it's only your opinion that popes are not popes. Remember that the pope is a man, not a man-God.

    Among other things it must be the solemn formula that has you fooled. FYI, the pope, making use of his full authority, can use that same formula for whatever he wants, but per V1, only a doctrine being defined using that formula i.e. ex cathedra will be free from the possibility of error. Needless to say, canonizations are not doctrines, they're canonizations. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #64 on: February 24, 2024, 07:34:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 23, 2024, 12:13:27 PM
    Talk about a rarity! Mark it on the calendar!
    Good catch, Stubborn! 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #65 on: February 25, 2024, 07:22:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 24, 2024, 05:14:59 AM
    You place way, way too high a value on your own opinions ...

    My opinions?  Pope Benedict XIV, all the Doctors, and nearly every theologian all agree that canonizations are infallible.  You're the one who puts your opinions over that of the Magisterium, considering yourself competent to judge the Magisterium and ultimately decide what is Traditional and what is not.  Only disagreement is about the "note" assigned to the contrary error, whether it's heretical or proximate to heresy.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #66 on: February 25, 2024, 07:24:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 24, 2024, 05:14:59 AM
    You place way, way too high a value on your own opinions ...

    ... but per V1, only a doctrine being defined using that formula i.e. ex cathedra will be free from the possibility of error. Needless to say, canonizations are not doctrines, they're canonizations.

    Talk about placing "too high a value on your own opinions," hypocrite.  Pope Benedict XIV, St. Thomas Aquinas, and myriad Doctors and theologians (some listed above) all agree that canonizations are infallible and are in fact matters of faith and morals indirectly.  This is disputed by no one.  Your is by far the "minority" opinion, i.e. held by no Catholic authority in the past few hundred years, and yet have the hypocritical temerity to claim that this is merely MY opinion.  Consensus of theological opinion and theological authority is clearly in our corner on this issue.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #67 on: February 25, 2024, 07:29:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 24, 2024, 05:14:59 AM
    ... but per V1, only a doctrine being defined using that formula i.e. ex cathedra will be free from the possibility of error. Needless to say, canonizations are not doctrines, they're canonizations.



    Quote
    In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "... the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith ..."
    ...
    Theologians generally agree as to the fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization, but disagree as to the quality of certitude due to a papal decree in such matter. In the opinion of some it is of faith (Arriaga, De fide, disp. 9, p. 5, no 27); others hold that to refuse assent to such a judgment of the Holy See would be both impious and rash, as Francisco Suárez (De fide, disp. 5 p. 8, no 8); many more (and this is the general view) hold such a pronouncement to be theologically certain, not being of Divine Faith as its purport has not been immediately revealed, nor of ecclesiastical Faith as having thus far not been defined by the Church.

    Theologians agree that canonizations are infallible, but disagree about the "quality of certitude", i.e. about the theological note to be assigned to the contrary error.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #68 on: February 25, 2024, 10:07:30 AM »
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    • As I said, "You place way, way too high a value on your own opinions." 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #69 on: February 25, 2024, 11:18:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 25, 2024, 10:07:30 AM
    As I said, "You place way, way too high a value on your own opinions."

    Keep telling yourself that, Stubborn, but these not my opinions, but those of nearly every Catholic theologian.  It's YOU who value YOUR opinion much more highly than all of theirs.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #70 on: February 25, 2024, 01:05:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 25, 2024, 11:18:11 AM
    Keep telling yourself that, Stubborn, but these not my opinions, but those of nearly every Catholic theologian.  It's YOU who value YOUR opinion much more highly than all of theirs.
    Those theologians opinions do not apply to the NO and conciliar popes. If you think they do or would, then you are simply altogether wrong.

    Look, you know that everything, literally everything NO is either wrong, partially corrupted, completely corrupted, adulterated or worse, now, whatever your opinion, NO canonizations are no different - just accept that everything NO is a disaster, including their canonizations. 

    There are conditions set at V1 for the infallibility of the pope. You need to read those conditions and accept those conditions. One of those conditions is that the pope must be defining a doctrine ex cathedra, add to that this doctrine must concern faith or morals, add to that this doctrine is to be held by the whole Church.

     Needless to say, none of the conciliar popes have ever declared any NO doctrine ex cathedra, which only proves to those of us with faith in the dogma of papal infallibility as defined at V1, is that there is not one infallible NO doctrine, that's what it proves.

    Canonizations do not and never have been a doctrine at all, certainly not a doctrine concerning faith or morals.

    Even if you want to continue to insist on preaching contrary V1, stop with declaring those of us who do not go contrary to V1 to be heretics and Old Catholics for agreeing with V1.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #71 on: February 26, 2024, 06:21:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 25, 2024, 01:05:24 PM
    Those theologians opinions do not apply to the NO and conciliar popes. If you think they do or would, then you are simply altogether wrong.
    Yes, those opinions of theologians do indeed apply to the NO and conciliar popes.

    See how that works?

    Check #4 & 6 here:

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #72 on: February 26, 2024, 06:27:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 26, 2024, 06:21:28 AM
    Yes, those opinions of theologians do indeed apply to the NO and conciliar popes.

    See how that works?

    Check #4 & 6 here:


    Then the canonized heretic popes are in heaven.
    See how that works?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #73 on: February 26, 2024, 06:33:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 26, 2024, 06:27:12 AM
    Then the canonized heretic popes are in heaven.
    See how that works?
    No, because there has not been a pope since 1958 (or possibly 1963) to canonise [sic] these heretics.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Priest Denies Canonization of John Paul II (2014)
    « Reply #74 on: February 26, 2024, 06:35:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on February 25, 2024, 01:05:24 PM
    Those theologians opinions do not apply to the NO and conciliar popes.

    They apply to legitimate Popes, period.  You claim they're legitimate popes.  Ergo, their opinions would apply.

    This entire time you attacked me from valuing my opinion too highly, where it's you who cling to your opinion over and against those of a vast body of theological opinion, and I am the one in conformity with the opinion of all these theologians.
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