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Author Topic: Silence as non-acceptance  (Read 1517 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Silence as non-acceptance
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 02:47:38 PM »
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  • Good.

    None of those premises hold.
    1. “Silence is not non-reception; non-reception requires an act of refusal.”  You’re redefining non-reception into something so vague it becomes unfalsifiable. Historically, non-reception is not mere “non-integration,” it is recognizable refusal: not teaching, not implementing, not commemorating, not building on a doctrine. In the East, that has taken concrete forms—synodal statements, refusal to sign, refusal to commune, removal from diptychs, or simply never allowing a teaching to function as a norm. If a council’s ideas are taught in seminaries, used in pastoral practice, cited as authoritative, and never explicitly rejected, that is not “sustained non-integration”—it is quiet reception. You can’t call ongoing use “non-reception” just because there was no dramatic rupture.

    2. “Continued communion proves quiet assent.”  Communion doesn’t always mean full interior agreement, but it does set a public baseline: you recognize the other as a legitimate teacher of the faith. The East has known “communion under protest,” but even then, protest was real—letters, synods, refusals, conditional acceptance. If there is no visible protest, no doctrinal clarification, no line drawn, then “communion under protest” becomes a story told after the fact, not a lived stance. You can’t appeal to a rare, exceptional mode of strained communion to normalize indefinite, peaceful coexistence with doctrines you claim are gravely harmful.
    Communion doesn’t always mean full interior agreement, but it does set a public baseline: you recognize the other as a legitimate teacher of the faith. The East has known “communion under protest,” but even then, protest was real—letters, synods, refusals, conditional acceptance. If there is no visible protest, no doctrinal clarification, no line drawn, then “communion under protest” becomes a story told after the fact, not a lived stance. You can’t appeal to a rare, exceptional mode of strained communion to normalize indefinite, peaceful coexistence with doctrines you claim are gravely harmful.

    3. “The East accepted the legitimacy of the council, therefore accepted its doctrine.”  Legitimacy and doctrinal reception are distinct, but not unrelated. If a council is recognized as legitimate, its teaching is at least presumptively binding unless and until it is explicitly corrected, delimited, or non-received in practice. Historically, when the East “acknowledged” but did not receive certain formulas, that non-reception showed up in how they prayed, taught, and legislated. If Vatican II (or III in your scenario) is cited as a positive reference point, used to justify reforms, and never formally bracketed or corrected, then appealing to a theoretical distinction between “event” and “content” becomes a way to avoid admitting that, functionally, the content has been received.

    4. “Because Vatican II was not dogmatic, resistance should look the same as past heresies.”  No one is saying the mode of resistance must be identical; the point is that some recognizable resistance is required if the doctrine is truly harmful. The Church has always distinguished between levels of error, but she has never treated “pastoral” or “ambiguous” error as harmless. Ambiguity can be more dangerous precisely because it spreads under cover of plausible deniability. If you admit there is real doctrinal rupture, then “it was pastoral” doesn’t justify near-total passivity. Different crises can have different responses—but “we did almost nothing” is not a historically serious pattern of resistance.

    5. “Non-reception requires removal from diptychs.” Removal from diptychs is one form of non-reception, not the only one—but it is a clear Eastern benchmark for when communion and doctrine are no longer compatible. You’re right that you can’t “remove a council” from the diptychs, but you can refuse to build on it, refuse to cite it as normative, refuse to let it shape catechesis and law. If, instead, the council is treated as a positive reference point and its categories are absorbed into ecclesial life, then the analogy to Nestorius fails in the opposite direction: not because the East can’t remove a council, but because it hasn’t even tried to limit its doctrinal reach.

    6. “Preserving the Divine Liturgy is insufficient; communion discipline is the true standard.” Lex orandi is constitutive in the East, yes—but it is not the only locus of doctrine. The Fathers preached, wrote, and defined outside the liturgy, and those teachings mattered. Nestorius proves that liturgy can remain formally intact while preaching corrupts faith. Preserving the anaphora while allowing catechesis, episcopal statements, and pastoral practice to absorb problematic theology is not fidelity; it is partial resistance at best. To say “we kept the liturgy, therefore we resisted” is like saying “we kept the Creed, therefore our sermons don’t matter.” The East has never believed that.No one is denying that there can be periods of ambiguity and patience. The issue is duration and content. Temporary ambiguity while a crisis clarifies is one thing; decades of peaceful coexistence with doctrines you claim are gravely harmful is another. At some point, “waiting” becomes endorsement by default. The East has indeed endured tension without immediate schism—but when the line was finally crossed, it was crossed clearly. If that line is never drawn, and the supposed “error” continues to shape formation and practice, then calling that stance “eschatological trust” is pious language for functional complicity.

    7.“Silence plus communion equals complicity.” No one is denying that there can be periods of ambiguity and patience. The issue is duration and content. Temporary ambiguity while a crisis clarifies is one thing; decades of peaceful coexistence with doctrines you claim are gravely harmful is another. At some point, “waiting” becomes endorsement by default. The East has indeed endured tension without immediate schism—but when the line was finally crossed, it was crossed clearly. If that line is never drawn, and the supposed “error” continues to shape formation and practice, then calling that stance “eschatological trust” is pious language for functional complicity.

    8. “Appeal to Arianism as the controlling paradigm.”  Arianism isn’t a template for everything, but it is a test case for how the Church treats doctrinal rupture. The point is not that Vatican II/III must look exactly like Arianism; the point is that the Church has never said, “Because this error is subtle or pastoral, we may indefinitely coexist with it in communion and practice.” Whether the error is metaphysical, christological, or ecclesiological, the pattern is the same: once recognized as incompatible with the faith, it must be resisted in some concrete way. Saying “this is different, therefore we can do almost nothing” is not historical nuance; it’s an excuse.


    9. “Changing positions indicates dishonesty.”  You’re right that revising conclusions can be a sign of integrity. But that cuts both ways. If someone once insisted that Vatican II was harmless, then later admits it contains serious doctrinal problems, that admission logically demands a corresponding shift in practice—especially regarding communion and reception. You can’t invoke “deeper study” to justify recognizing a deeper problem while leaving your ecclesial posture unchanged. The charge is not “you changed your mind, therefore you’re dishonest,” but “you changed your diagnosis without changing your treatment, therefore your new diagnosis looks rhetorical rather than operative.”


    Bottom line:

    Your objections only work if:

    • non-reception can be invisible,
    • communion can be indefinitely maintained without real consequence,
    • “pastoral” error is exempt from serious resistance,
    • preserving liturgy excuses doctrinal drift elsewhere, and
    • decades of silence can still count as meaningful opposition.


    None of that matches how the East—or the Church as a whole—has actually handled serious doctrinal rupture in the past.










    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 02:57:54 PM »
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  • You’re actively not even arguing logic anymore. 

    You mention Vatican 3 as if that has any real bearing on reality. 

    Then you go off topic on the theme of flip flopping. All that was was a waste if words because my position remained the same. The only thing that changed was my view on the State of Necessity. 

    But your view of Catholic Tradition is so limited, that you don’t even actually understand the SSPX position to defend it well enough. Archbishop Lefebre remains vindicated. How does that tie into uour analysis of my position. 

    The bottom line is
    -you have no real understanding of of the Crisis in the Faith or Church history
    -your argument doesn’t go deep enough to penetrate the understanding of Traditionalist culture or the motives for how Tradition got here in the first place. 

    You can go sit in your pew this Sunday in your best suit top and compete with your neighbors about who yells out the response better in a Low Mass where they shouldn’t be anyway. Then go home to your plastic world and tell yourself how Traditional you are. 


    Oh and I never needed a computer to say all that. Older forum members understand that. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 03:20:04 PM »
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  • You can go sit in your pew this Sunday in your best suit top and compete with your neighbors about who yells out the response better in a Low Mass where they shouldn’t be anyway. Then go home to your plastic world and tell yourself how Traditional you are.
    Sounds like bitter zeal and contempt to me.

    All your objections were refuted.

    You couldn't even respond to a single point above with any cogency at all.

    In this here "coming out party" about how Eastern Catholicism is so grand and has the answer better than SSPX, Sedes, etc. What is it that you are really trying to accomplish?

    You want us to all agree that the long-term state of necessity due to the crisis doesn't work? I already believe that.

    You want us to agree that the Vatican II Easterners never compromised their faith (though they fully submit to Rome amidst all the confusion, error, heresy, apostasy, and they never speak, but only hold the door for Leo when he comes to visit)? - I respectfully disagree, as do all the true Eastern bishops, Popes, saints, and theologians of the past.

    You want us to believe that as long as the Byzantine rite doesn't inject heresy into its Liturgy then they are all good-2-go?
    No, sorry you don't get to reinvent history, or what orthodoxy and communion mean just because you have found what you think "works" for you in making sense of the Church crisis during your life.

    But, you can pretend, you can convince yourself and then you can come on here and share your imaginings with everyone else while we demean each other and spout off wordy rants about the superiority of rites, our ideas, our judgments, our...etc.

    I for one won't be giving you the "silent treatment" - so that you may have no doubt about your errors.

    The whole "silence as non-acceptance" schtick is an intellectual tap out.

    I image that many Catholics during the Arian crisis did what I perceive you are doing now. Some of those Catholics followed St. Athanasius out into the desert, Others chose exile rather than hold communion with heretics. Concerning the rampant heresy, I am sure a great majority of the laity just "went along with it." The Church does not remember those who acquiesced through silence, She remembers those who resisted the heresy openly disassociating themselves from the heretical communion. So, you may think your actions are "safe" and "prudent", "discerning" and "wise" and come on here to tell us all so, but I see the same spirit there as expressed by those who just went along with it by their silence.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 03:34:17 PM »
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  • NYou keep repeating a straw man that no one has actually argued: that “as long as the Byzantine Church doesn’t inject heresy into its liturgy, everything is fine.” That is not my claim. My claim is that the Byzantine Church preserved doctrinal continuity, liturgical immutability, and ascetical discipline through the crisis, while the Latin Church did not. That is an empirical historical comparison, not a personal coping strategy.

    You accuse me of “reinventing history,” yet you have not identified a single doctrinal innovation introduced into the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, a single ecuмenical council of the Byzantine Church embracing Vatican II novelty, or a single instance where the Byzantine Church dismantled its inherited theological grammar to accommodate modernity. The Latin Church, by contrast, did all three. That contrast is the point you keep avoiding.

    You object that the Byzantine Church “remained in communion,” as if communion without doctrinal mutation is somehow equivalent to communion with doctrinal rupture. Historically, the Church has always judged fidelity not merely by juridical alignment, but by what is taught, prayed, and handed down. Communion did not excuse Arian bishops, Iconoclast emperors, or Monothelite patriarchs when doctrine was corrupted. The standard has never been “Did you stay polite?” but “Did you preserve the faith?”

    You dismiss “silence as non-acceptance” as an intellectual tap-out, yet the Byzantine Church’s resistance was not silence—it was refusal to translate novelty into prayer, catechesis, or spiritual formation. The Latin Church did the opposite: it embedded ambiguity into its missal, catechisms, seminaries, and moral theology. One Church absorbed the poison into its bloodstream. The other did not. That difference matters.

    You keep insisting that I must be proposing a superiority of rites based on personal preference. Again, wrong. This is not about aesthetics or temperament. It is about structural resilience. The Byzantine Church’s theology is liturgical, ascetical, and patristic by necessity. The Latin Church made itself bureaucratic, academic, and managerial—and when novelty entered, it had no immune system. That is not triumphalism; it is diagnosis.

    You accuse me of inconsistency for having moved through SSPX, CMRI, and now the Byzantine Church. That is not flip-flopping; it is following the same principle to its conclusion: where is the faith preserved whole, without mental gymnastics, emergency theories, or perpetual exception clauses? The Latin traditionalist world has produced endless internal contradictions precisely because its crisis is structural, not accidental.

    You ask what I am trying to accomplish. The answer is simple: to point out that the Latin Church’s crisis has produced fragmentation, clerical collapse, doctrinal minimalism, and an inability to discipline itself—while the Byzantine Church retained coherence without reinventing itself every decade. If that observation unsettles you, the discomfort is not coming from arrogance on my part, but from facts you would rather not account for.

    Finally, your repeated attempts to psychologize my argument—calling it bitterness, zealotry, or imagination—only confirm that you are no longer engaging the substance. When history, theology, and lived ecclesial reality all point in the same direction, dismissing them as personal narrative is not refutation. It is avoidance.

    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 03:36:55 PM »
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  • And we haven’t even touched (pun intended) on the crisis of predatory priests in the Traditional Latin Rite. So far, I’ve been fair to keep this to the crisis of Faith. There’s a whole lot more darker issues with the Traditionalist Catholic circles. I don’t have to report on that. Those that have been around long enough know. But ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs who choose to infiltrate the Catholic Church choose one rite and one rite for a reason.

    So remember, I am arguing the beautiful points and hiding the ugly.

    Attack me all you want as a flip flop. But it’s much safer over here.


    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 03:41:47 PM »
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  • NYou keep repeating a straw man that no one has actually argued: that “as long as the Byzantine Church doesn’t inject heresy into its liturgy, everything is fine.” That is not my claim. My claim is that the Byzantine Church preserved doctrinal continuity, liturgical immutability, and ascetical discipline through the crisis, while the Latin Church did not. That is an empirical historical comparison, not a personal coping strategy.

    You accuse me of “reinventing history,” yet you have not identified a single doctrinal innovation introduced into the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, a single ecuмenical council of the Byzantine Church embracing Vatican II novelty, or a single instance where the Byzantine Church dismantled its inherited theological grammar to accommodate modernity. The Latin Church, by contrast, did all three. That contrast is the point you keep avoiding.

    You object that the Byzantine Church “remained in communion,” as if communion without doctrinal mutation is somehow equivalent to communion with doctrinal rupture. Historically, the Church has always judged fidelity not merely by juridical alignment, but by what is taught, prayed, and handed down. Communion did not excuse Arian bishops, Iconoclast emperors, or Monothelite patriarchs when doctrine was corrupted. The standard has never been “Did you stay polite?” but “Did you preserve the faith?”

    You dismiss “silence as non-acceptance” as an intellectual tap-out, yet the Byzantine Church’s resistance was not silence—it was refusal to translate novelty into prayer, catechesis, or spiritual formation. The Latin Church did the opposite: it embedded ambiguity into its missal, catechisms, seminaries, and moral theology. One Church absorbed the poison into its bloodstream. The other did not. That difference matters.

    You keep insisting that I must be proposing a superiority of rites based on personal preference. Again, wrong. This is not about aesthetics or temperament. It is about structural resilience. The Byzantine Church’s theology is liturgical, ascetical, and patristic by necessity. The Latin Church made itself bureaucratic, academic, and managerial—and when novelty entered, it had no immune system. That is not triumphalism; it is diagnosis.

    You accuse me of inconsistency for having moved through SSPX, CMRI, and now the Byzantine Church. That is not flip-flopping; it is following the same principle to its conclusion: where is the faith preserved whole, without mental gymnastics, emergency theories, or perpetual exception clauses? The Latin traditionalist world has produced endless internal contradictions precisely because its crisis is structural, not accidental.

    You ask what I am trying to accomplish. The answer is simple: to point out that the Latin Church’s crisis has produced fragmentation, clerical collapse, doctrinal minimalism, and an inability to discipline itself—while the Byzantine Church retained coherence without reinventing itself every decade. If that observation unsettles you, the discomfort is not coming from arrogance on my part, but from facts you would rather not account for.

    Finally, your repeated attempts to psychologize my argument—calling it bitterness, zealotry, or imagination—only confirm that you are no longer engaging the substance. When history, theology, and lived ecclesial reality all point in the same direction, dismissing them as personal narrative is not refutation. It is avoidance.


    You keep saying I’m attacking a straw man, but your argument still hinges on the assumption that preserving liturgical and ascetical forms is equivalent to preserving doctrinal integrity. You frame the Byzantine Church’s external continuity as proof of internal fidelity, yet history shows that doctrinal rupture can occur even when liturgy remains unchanged. Nestorius kept the liturgy intact. So did the Monothelites. So did the Iconoclasts. The East condemned them not because they altered worship, but because they taught error. Continuity of form is not continuity of faith.

    You demand that I identify doctrinal innovations in the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, but that is not the standard the Byzantine Church itself has ever used to judge heresy. The East has always condemned doctrinal error at the level of teaching, not merely at the level of liturgical text. The fact that the Byzantine Churches did not rewrite their anaphoras proves nothing about whether they accepted doctrinal rupture at the episcopal level. The question is not “Did the liturgy change?” but “Did the bishops accept and transmit error?” Liturgy is not a shield against doctrinal compromise.

    You argue that communion without doctrinal mutation is harmless, but communion is itself a doctrinal act. The clergy of Constantinople did not remain in communion with Nestorius simply because the liturgy was unchanged. They broke communion because he taught error. Communion is not judged by politeness or external calm; it is judged by whether one remains united to those who teach false doctrine. If the hierarchy teaches rupture and the bishops remain in communion, that is not fidelity—it is acquiescence.

    You claim the Byzantine Church resisted by refusing to translate novelty into prayer or catechesis, but resistance requires more than passive insulation. Real resistance leaves marks: synodal clarifications, doctrinal boundaries, explicit rejections. None of that occurred. If novelty is accepted at the level of episcopal teaching and ecclesial communion, then preserving the liturgy is not resistance—it is compartmentalization. Nestorius preserved the liturgy too. The East still condemned him.

    You say this is about structural resilience, not superiority of rites, but structural resilience is measured by doctrinal response, not by aesthetic stability. A Church can keep its liturgy, asceticism, and patristic vocabulary while quietly accepting doctrinal rupture at the episcopal level. That is not resilience; it is institutional quietism. The Latin Church’s bureaucratic failures do not automatically make the Byzantine Churches doctrinally intact.

    You defend your movement between groups as principled, but each shift required redefining the principle itself. If the principle is “Where is the faith preserved whole?”, then communion with a hierarchy teaching rupture cannot be the answer—no matter how ancient the liturgy is. Changing ecclesial homes without changing the underlying ecclesiology simply relocates the same unresolved contradictions.

    You say the Latin Church collapsed while the Byzantine Church retained coherence, but coherence is not the same as fidelity. A Church can remain coherent while doctrinally compromised. A Church can remain ascetical while ecclesiologically inconsistent. A Church can retain its liturgy while accepting rupture at the level of teaching. The question is not which Church looks healthier, but which Church resisted doctrinal error. External stability is not proof of internal integrity.

    You accuse me of psychologizing your argument, but the issue is not your motives—it is your method. You treat external continuity as proof of doctrinal purity, silence as resistance, communion as neutrality, and liturgical preservation as theological immunity. None of these claims align with how the Church—East or West—has historically judged fidelity. When history, theology, and ecclesiology contradict your framework, dismissing the critique as avoidance does not resolve the inconsistency.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 03:50:56 PM »
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  • The claim that the Latin Church’s crisis produced fragmentation, clerical collapse, doctrinal minimalism, and disciplinary paralysis, while the Byzantine Churches retained coherence without reinventing themselves, is presented as a simple empirical contrast. Yet the theological assumptions underlying this contrast do not align with the Church’s own pre‑Vatican II doctrinal standards. The argument treats liturgical immutability and ascetical continuity as proof of doctrinal integrity, but the Church has never taught that external stability is a sufficient criterion of orthodoxy. Nestorius preserved the liturgy; the Monothelites preserved the liturgy; the Iconoclasts preserved the liturgy. In each case, the rupture occurred at the level of teaching, not ritual form. St. Cyril of Alexandria writes, “We are bound to avoid those who think or teach otherwise, even if they pretend to confess the same faith” (PG 77:105). Pope St. Leo the Great likewise insists, “The rule of faith is not established by the form of prayers but by the confession of truth” (Ep. 124). Thus, liturgical continuity cannot be treated as doctrinal immunity.

    The argument also assumes that the Latin Church’s turmoil proves doctrinal rupture while the Byzantine Churches’ stability proves doctrinal purity. But ecclesial health is not measured by sociological outcomes. A Church can be fragmented yet doctrinally faithful, or coherent yet doctrinally compromised. St. Athanasius observed during the Arian crisis, “They have the churches, but you have the faith” (Against the Arians I.7). The Arians were externally unified and institutionally dominant; the orthodox were scattered and persecuted. External order is not a sign of doctrinal fidelity. The argument further treats communion as if it were a neutral administrative fact, irrelevant so long as liturgy and asceticism remain intact. But pre‑Vatican II ecclesiology is explicit: communion is confessional. Pius XII teaches, “The bonds which unite the faithful are profession of the same faith and communion of the same sacraments under legitimate pastors” (Mystici Corporis). St. John Chrysostom warns, “To communicate with the wolf is to scatter the sheep” (Hom. on Matthew 82). Communion is not neutral; it is doctrinal.

    The argument claims that the Byzantine Churches resisted novelty by refusing to translate it into prayer or catechesis, but authentic resistance in the Church has always involved explicit doctrinal acts. St. Gregory the Great writes, “Silence in the face of error is itself error” (Ep. 9.30). Pope Felix III states, “Not to oppose error is to approve it; not to defend truth is to suppress it” (PL 58:895). Passive insulation is not doctrinal resistance. A Church that preserves its liturgy while accepting doctrinal rupture at the episcopal level has preserved the appearance of continuity, not its substance. The argument then appeals to structural differences, suggesting that the Byzantine Churches’ liturgical‑ascetical culture made them resilient while the Latin Church’s bureaucratic structure made it vulnerable. But ecclesial structure does not determine doctrinal fidelity. St. Maximus the Confessor resisted Monothelitism in a Church that was fully Eastern, ascetical, and patristic, yet he warned, “Even if the whole world should fall into deception, the truth is not changed” (PG 91:144). Structure does not guarantee fidelity; confession does.

    The argument defends movement between ecclesial positions as principled development, but pre‑Vatican II theology insists that doctrinal judgment must be consistent with ecclesial posture. Pope Leo XIII teaches, “It is absurd to say one holds the faith while rejecting the authority that teaches it” (Satis Cognitum). If one judges a hierarchy to teach rupture yet remains in communion with it, the contradiction is not resolved by personal sincerity. Finally, the argument attempts to pre‑empt critique by framing objections as emotional discomfort rather than substantive disagreement. But theological critique is not a matter of psychology; it is a matter of doctrinal coherence. St. Augustine writes, “Let us not accuse persons, but examine the doctrine” (Contra Cresconium III.33). The issue is not motive but method. The claim that liturgical continuity equals doctrinal fidelity, that silence equals resistance, that communion equals neutrality, and that external coherence equals internal integrity does not align with the standards by which the Church has historically judged truth.

    In conclusion, pre‑Vatican II sources overwhelmingly affirm that liturgical continuity does not guarantee doctrinal fidelity, external coherence is not a sign of orthodoxy, communion is a doctrinal act, silence is not resistance, heresy spreads through teaching rather than ritual, ecclesial structure does not confer immunity to error, doctrinal judgment must align with ecclesial posture, and theological critique cannot be dismissed as psychological discomfort. The preservation of external form cannot be treated as proof of the preservation of internal faith, and the absence of visible rupture cannot be treated as evidence of fidelity. The Church has always judged doctrine by what is taught, professed, and confessed—not merely by what is prayed or preserved.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 04:08:52 PM »
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  • There’s a time for both silence and to speak. Pray to the Holy Ghost for the wisdom when to do either. 


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 04:49:34 PM »
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  • There’s a time for both silence and to speak. Pray to the Holy Ghost for the wisdom when to do either.
    Exactly. Even this argument and thread speaks of controversy when it shouldn’t. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 05:08:17 PM »
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  • I didn't take it that way.

    I thought she was calling out the Easterners for being silent when they should have spoken up.


    Centro, your central claim for this OP is literally, "to point out that the Latin Church’s crisis has produced fragmentation, clerical collapse, doctrinal minimalism, and an inability to discipline itself—while the Byzantine Church retained coherence without reinventing itself every decade."

    The first part - everyone here knows.

    The second part of the claim fails to realize, that the Byzantine Church is still wedded to the principles of Vatican II by their silent acceptance of Modern Rome and all that comes in it's wake - they hold communion with the heretics. If you are more R&R (which it seems that you always have been) then this is no problem for you to profess communion with heretics, it is all just meaningless words to many...

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Silence as non-acceptance
    « Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 08:11:45 PM »
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  • You don’t even understand my position well enough for me to waste my time. Stick around a little longer and read some of our threads from ten years back or so. 

    I never flipped. I always held the East in esteem for holding to Catholic doctrine, liturgy and having valid sacraments. I still support the sedevacantists groups that I have in the past. I still hold the CMRI position on the Council. I still will frequent a Latin Rite Mass, and only really one outside the Latin rite diocesan structure of which I have never known. 

    My position regarding the Byzantine Church is supported by hearing their clergy personally trash Lumen Gentium and transmitting the True Faith in ways not understood from a Latin mind. It takes time. Like assimilating to a new country, something I have done a time or two. 
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...