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Author Topic: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest  (Read 1667 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
« on: December 07, 2020, 09:07:31 AM »
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    • This is Fr. Stephen McKenna, who works under Bp. Dolan of St. Gertrude the Great Church in West Chester, OH. He explains a lot of the science and moral theology behind the question of taking abortive vaccines, and concludes that it is not sinful to receive a vaccine.
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    His treatment of the question is refreshingly balanced, reasonable, objective, and based on Catholic moral theology.
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    His answer is based on the idea that receiving an abortive vaccine is only material cooperation.
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    Based on my anecdotal experience of discussing this question with a number of sedevacantist priests, his point of view is representative of most of the sedevacantist world.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #1 on: December 07, 2020, 10:06:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on December 07, 2020, 09:07:31 AM
    This is Fr. Stephen McKenna, who works under Bp. Dolan of St. Gertrude the Great Church in West Chester, OH. He explains a lot of the science and moral theology behind the question of taking abortive vaccines, and concludes that it is not sinful to receive a vaccine.
    .
    His treatment of the question is refreshingly balanced, reasonable, objective, and based on Catholic moral theology.
    .
    His answer is based on the idea that receiving an abortive vaccine is only material cooperation.
    .
    Based on my anecdotal experience of discussing this question with a number of sedevacantist priests, his point of view is representative of most of the sedevacantist world.

    Very interesting.

    Does he say the double effect analysis is unnecessary (if so, why?), or that it passes the double effect test (if so, does he include his application of tge criteria to the matter of receiving abortive vaccines)?

    Also: How does he circuмvent St. Paul’s scandal obstacle?
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    Offline andy

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #2 on: December 07, 2020, 10:41:09 AM »
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    • How we can reconcile "getting a vaccine in itself is morally indifferent" with "we know for the fact they will hurt us/our children"?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #3 on: December 07, 2020, 02:03:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 07, 2020, 10:06:08 AM
    Very interesting.

    Does he say the double effect analysis is unnecessary (if so, why?), or that it passes the double effect test (if so, does he include his application of tge criteria to the matter of receiving abortive vaccines)?

    Also: How does he circuмvent St. Paul’s scandal obstacle?
    Avoidance of scandal is not an absolute.  We do not have to risk or lose our lives, or even subject ourselves to grave illness, solely in the name of avoiding scandal.  People always have free will, and in a very real sense, ultimately a person scandalizes himself, even if someone else's actions are the catalyst.  No one ever has to sin.  No one ever has to put a bad interpretation on someone else's actions.  When people are determined to be scandalized by our words or actions --- what is called "pharisaical scandal" --- there's not a lot we can do to stop them.  At that point, it's their problem, not ours.

    I am not suggesting that giving scandal is an indifferent thing, but where life or at health are at stake, avoidance of scandal has to take a back seat to more important considerations.

    My comments above are based on the assumption that the vaccine is permissible, that the vaccine works, and that it is desirable to take the vaccine.  I am fully aware that readers here are going to have negative opinions about any or all three of these propositions.  I don't wish to get into that debate here, nor do I wish to take one side or the other.  My comments are only concerned with the scandal aspect of the matter.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #4 on: December 07, 2020, 02:15:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 07, 2020, 02:03:54 PM
    Avoidance of scandal is not an absolute.  We do not have to risk or lose our lives, or even subject ourselves to grave illness, solely in the name of avoiding scandal.  People always have free will, and in a very real sense, ultimately a person scandalizes himself, even if someone else's actions are the catalyst.  No one ever has to sin.  No one ever has to put a bad interpretation on someone else's actions.  When people are determined to be scandalized by our words or actions --- what is called "pharisaical scandal" --- there's not a lot we can do to stop them.  At that point, it's their problem, not ours.

    I am not suggesting that giving scandal is an indifferent thing, but where life or at health are at stake, avoidance of scandal has to take a back seat to more important considerations.

    My comments above are based on the assumption that the vaccine is permissible, that the vaccine works, and that it is desirable to take the vaccine.  I am fully aware that readers here are going to have negative opinions about any or all three of these propositions.  I don't wish to get into that debate here, nor do I wish to take one side or the other.  My comments are only concerned with the scandal aspect of the matter.
    But as has been discussed elsewhere, there is no need for the vaccine.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #5 on: December 07, 2020, 02:18:51 PM »
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    • I'm a sede so I don't have any bias against sede clergy.  However, the early Christians (aka Catholics) died rather than eat meat sacrificed to pagan idols.  And yet it is ok to inject human baby flesh sacrificed to the modernist deities into our veins?  Nope, I don't agree.  I won't be taking the vaccine.  If they murder me because I won't take a vaccine because it is a denial of Christ, then I should go straight to Heaven bypassing purgatory altogether.  That would be a real blessing.  God's will be done.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #6 on: December 07, 2020, 02:20:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 07, 2020, 02:15:07 PM
    But as has been discussed elsewhere, there is no need for the vaccine.
    As I said, based upon the three assumptions that I stated.  If one chooses not to take it, seeing no need for it, then the question of whether taking it would give scandal is moot.  I don't think anybody is going to say "there is no need for the vaccine, I have a free choice as to whether to take or not, and I would take it, but if I do that, it'll give scandal, so on second thought, I'd better not take it after all".

    That was the logic I was using.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #7 on: December 07, 2020, 02:23:37 PM »
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    • In case, you protest against my characterization of abortion as a sacrifice, let me just say that modernists have disguised their ceremonies such that they are very informal and practically unnoticeable.  But start asking questions and you will quickly find out that modernists have a quasi-religious view of things.  They are not just killing babies as a simple crime for them.  It is a religious experience for them.  They are saving the planet, etc.  Secularism is a religion.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #8 on: December 07, 2020, 02:25:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 07, 2020, 02:20:09 PM
    As I said, based upon the three assumptions that I stated.  If one chooses not to take it, seeing no need for it, then the question of whether taking it would give scandal is moot.  I don't think anybody is going to say "there is no need for the vaccine, I have a free choice as to whether to take or not, and I would take it, but if I do that, it'll give scandal, so on second thought, I'd better not take it after all".

    That was the logic I was using.

    No, you said where “life or health are at stake, scandal has to take a neck seat.”

    I’m taking that for the sake of argument, and concluding that since life and health are NOT at stake, the issue of scandal presents a glaring moral impediment.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #9 on: December 07, 2020, 02:32:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on December 07, 2020, 02:18:51 PM
    I'm a sede so I don't have any bias against sede clergy.  However, the early Christians (aka Catholics) died rather than eat meat sacrificed to pagan idols.  And yet it is ok to inject human baby flesh sacrificed to the modernist deities into our veins?  Nope, I don't agree.  I won't be taking the vaccine.  If they murder me because I won't take a vaccine because it is a denial of Christ, then I should go straight to Heaven bypassing purgatory altogether.  That would be a real blessing.  God's will be done.
    If all Catholics and others of good will displayed the same courage, then the enemies plot will fail.
    For example, look at the million man Trump rally in D.C., the COVID laws could not be enforced and Antifa/BLM could not touch them, but one the Trump supporters dispersed, then the Antifa/BLM came in.

    Or look at in CA, the SoCal sheriffs say they will not enforce the COVID lock-downs. That is what we need, more people to resist by simply saying "I will not comply" .

    The Governors and legislators can yell and bark order all day, but it will have no effect if there is no one to carry out those orders.

    Hopefully we all refuse the vaccine and then come to each others aid and defense.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #10 on: December 07, 2020, 02:39:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on December 07, 2020, 02:18:51 PM
    I'm a sede so I don't have any bias against sede clergy.  However, the early Christians (aka Catholics) died rather than eat meat sacrificed to pagan idols.  And yet it is ok to inject human baby flesh sacrificed to the modernist deities into our veins?  Nope, I don't agree.  I won't be taking the vaccine.  If they murder me because I won't take a vaccine because it is a denial of Christ, then I should go straight to Heaven bypassing purgatory altogether.  That would be a real blessing.  God's will be done.

    If the quote from St. Thomas is correct (Secunda Secundae, Q. 125, Art. 4), fear will lessen culpability somewhat, but not completely.

    I take that to mean an otherwise mortal sin is reduced to venial.

    Of course, in the martyrs’ case, we are speaking of rejecting direct and immediate sin, not material remote sin (yes, I am still a bit bothered by Fr. Scott’s “direct line of causality” terminology, and the argument that this is not material remote cooperation), so it is a different thing altogether, with a much stronger and clearer duty to resist.

    That said, it is not clear to me how one can permit remote cooperation in material evil (ie., direct involuntary) without meeting the requirements of double effect.

    You can’t just say “remote material” and ignore the double effect analysis, or it would imply remote cooperation in material evil was ALWAYS permissible (which would render double effect frivolous and unnecessary in every instance).

    And of course, none of this addresses the tremendous scandal.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #11 on: December 07, 2020, 02:56:45 PM »
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    • Quote
    If they murder me because I won't take a vaccine because it is a denial of Christ, then I should go straight to Heaven bypassing purgatory altogether.

    If the vaccine was being advertised as a satanic religious practice, or an anti-catholic symbolism, then your thought process would be valid.  As it is, taking a vaccine is not a denial of Christ, nor of the Church.  It is (arguably) an acceptance of abortion, on some level.  That is a moral evil, but not an evil against the Faith.  Because it's not a direct attack on the Faith, then it's not martyrdom.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #12 on: December 07, 2020, 03:05:42 PM »
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    • Strangely, I've known a lot of sede priests to be lax where it comes to moral theology ... having very much a legalistic mindset.
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    Offline choakley

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #13 on: December 07, 2020, 03:17:07 PM »
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    • "to deceive (if possible) even the elect"
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vaccines are PERMISSIBLE according to sede priest
    « Reply #14 on: December 07, 2020, 03:19:22 PM »
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    • There has in fact been a downside and a danger to some of the key concepts of scholasticism.

    In the wrong hands, the distinction, and in particular the formal/material distinction, has been used to justify one heresy or error after another.

    Material this, formal that, and presto chango, a dogma now means the exact opposite of what it actually says.  This has been done regularly by the Modernists for centuries in the realm of dogma, and it's also being done in the realm of moral theology.
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