Author Topic: Retreat - refuge options (Read 8378 times)

Graehame · « **on:** March 27, 2012, 06:05:25 PM »

I’m the 58 year-old head of an extended family of traditionalist Catholics-- 3 sons and their wives and fiancees, politically very conservative-- who are attempting to prepare for the temporary or long-term breakdown of civilization. What we're looking for is an individual, family, or community that either possesses or is in the process of acquiring a remote retreat and requires 1 or more people to live there to perform security and caretaker duties. We are interested in correspondence to explore bartering our services in exchange for a few acres of land. Structures are not necessary-- we'll build them.
Our particular concerns stem from gov’t. expansionism [the gov’t. now thinks they can spy on people (Patriot Act), arrest and detain people on mere suspicion of wrongdoing (NDAA), and now even kill American citizens on the basis of such suspicion (public statement of Att'y. Gen. Eric Holder on 5 Mar.)], the imminent collapse of the European Union, the suspension of T-bond purchases by foreign buyers, and/or mid- to long-term interruptions in the food and oil supply, leading to an economic collapse in the U.S.; apocalyptic considerations (End Times prophecy), the risk of epidemic disease, 1 or more supercatastrophes occurring over a brief period of time, etc., and the effect any of this will have on nuclear power plants (loss of personnel leading to a compromise of the spent fuel rods in the containment pond).
What we bring to the table-- I have 12 years of experience as a U.S. Army officer with a Top Secret clearance, and a lifetime of wilderness survival experience all over the world. I and my sons for the past 16 years have spent a summer every 2 or 3 years prospecting in southeastern Alaska. Between the 4 of us we have limited skills in the mechanical and maintenance areas (automotive, small engine, and light welding), extensive skills in construction (2 of my sons have worked as building contractors), animal husbandry (horses, cattle, goats, pigs, chickens, and turkeys), hunting and commercial-scale fishing (including skinning, dressing, butchering, and storing meat and fish), computer networking (more than enough to maintain a computer intranet in a grid-down situation for as long as the spare parts hold out), and the ability to construct and operate wood gasifiers to provide electrical power to a small community indefinitely. I have also managed a small security company in southern Michigan, so I thoroughly understand the procedures and professional obligations of a security contractor. We also possess an extensive survival library, a library of 19th Century technology, a good stockpile of heirloom seeds, and of course firearms and ammunition. As for our character, 1 thing that we share above all is integrity. Our word is our bond. Our preferred areas are southeastern Alaska and the Idaho-Montana-Wyoming area, although other sufficiently remote areas will be considered. My e-mail is graehame at hotmail dot com.

ggreg · « **Reply #1 on:** March 28, 2012, 05:38:51 AM »

You have posted on the right internet forum and you certainly seem skilled up.

Best of luck. I have alternative skills and alternative plans. None of us know how things will change, slowly or quickly. All that we know for certain is that change will come because change is always happening. Black Swans are notoriously hard to predict and like throwing a pack of cards in the air it is impossible to know which way they will fall. Any plan needs to be able to cope with all the scenarios you list being wrong or fatally flawed.

Being a land owning or even food producing person in 1930s Russia/Ukraine put you are deadly risk of death through starvation or deportation to Siberia. Almost counter-intuitive.

It's not hard to imagine Obama or someone like him scapegoating homesteaders. Look at Waco. The people in power can do anything they like.

My plans revolve around working out who has the power in the changed world and working out what they need and how I can provide it (at a profit thereby making an income for myself) and therefore become a necessary part of the new political reality. If there is no way I can do that and remain moral then I'd just have to die.

But that was sure to happen anyway.

The breakdown of the Soviet Union is about the best model we have for modern times. A new elite very quickly establishes a new law and order. Food for thought.

Maizar · « **Reply #2 on:** March 28, 2012, 05:45:12 AM »

Additional advice: be hidden in plain sight, never give away your identity on-line willingly and whatever you do, make it look normal and boring. You should know that they will be looking at movement patterns, browsing habits, communications logs, anything they can gather to figure out which civilians are interesting and which are not.

Perhaps being in the US at all is not good, actually. But wherever you go, make it a holiday destination or something, but then some place further from there make your retreat. You can't really hide, so just wear social camouflage.

Don't be interesting!

Graehame · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2012, 09:38:51 AM »

ggreg & Maizar-- Thank you both for your kind words.
ggreg-- "Any plan needs to be able to cope with all the scenarios you list being wrong or fatally flawed."
Good idea in principle, but of course impossible in practice. We're neither trying to plan for "everything" nor for eternity. We're simply trying to get a plan in place to cover some of the most likely scenarios over the next 2 to 3 generations, that's also flexible enough to cover a few of the unlikely ones. Better to be prepped for something than to be unprepped for everything.
"Being a land owning or even food producing person in 1930s Russia/Ukraine put you are deadly risk of death through starvation or deportation to Siberia. Almost counter-intuitive."
If things go in that direction-- which I admit is a possibility-- then no one's preps will be adequate. Which is why I listed southeast Alaska at the top of our list. It's a roadless area, sufficiently remote & off the grid for a small community to literally not exist as far as the rest of the world is concerned.
"Look at Waco. The people in power can do anything they like."
An excellent point. Which is why we need to avoid at all costs becoming another Waco.
"My plans revolve around working out who has the power in the changed world and working out what they need and how I can provide it (at a profit thereby making an income for myself) and therefore become a necessary part of the new political reality. If there is no way I can do that and remain moral then I'd just have to die."
Let's examine that for a moment. If "the new political reality" is oppressive-- & if it isn't then this conversation becomes rather pointless-- then by definition you can't become part of it without sacrificing your integrity, your morality, or both. Nor would you want to. Moreover, we're witnessing a greater & greater centralization of power. Those who hold it have already reached the point where they don't "need" anything that you or I can provide. I therefore can't accept your approach.
My thinking on this is that I can get my family far enough off the grid, & adequately self-sufficient in terms of skills & resources, for us to be overlooked while the new power structure-- if there is one-- consolidates its position. And if chaos ensues in the absence of a new power structure-- as I suspect that it might-- then to enable us to survive that period & to emerge on the other side in reasonably good shape.
...and Maizar-- "...be hidden in plain sight..."
That advice works moderately well for urbanites & suburbanites who are unable to relocate. But I believe that getting entirely off the grid & achieving a degree of self-sufficiency in a truly remote area is a superior strategy. We're prepared to do that both psychologically & in terms of our skill set, but we're hampered by funding.
"...never give away your identity on-line..."
Hard to build a network with 100% OPSEC. I believe that the value of a network makes it worthwhile to compromise security, provided you do it rarely & judiciously.
"...whatever you do, make it look normal and boring."
Excellent advice. I have an old Army buddy who lives by that motto, & keeps me constantly reminded of it.
"...they will be looking at movement patterns, browsing habits, communications logs, anything they can gather..."
...and unfortunately, with the advent of computer technology & miniaturization, "they" can now examine & correlate vastly more information than they could even 5 or 10 years ago. In the years to come it will only get worse. That's the most troubling thing about RFID chips, the coming Real ID program, GPS tracking of cell phones & vehicles, urban surveillance cameras, ultra-small surveillance drones, & all the rest-- that "they" now have the ability to actually examine & correlate all that information.
"Perhaps being in the US at all is not good, actually."
It isn't. Just better than all the alternatives.

Busillis · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2012, 10:24:28 AM »

Quote from: Maizar

Don't be interesting!

You need to follow this advice. Since I've gotten here I've probably read more of your posts than anybody elses. :wink:

I've read that using Tor is not completely safe.

Deo Vindice · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2012, 04:50:45 PM »

I'm a lawyer. And a former U.S. Marine who is ready to head for Chile. It's over here in the former republic, but in response to your inquiry.

It's YOYO time buddy. If you can't secure a couple of acres by yourself then you spent too much time in the military taking orders and not enough time thinking for yourself. (YOYO: "You're On Your Own")

It's easy to find land. Lease it with an option to purchase, with the leasehold payments being applied in whole or in part to the purchase price, all of which should be determined prior to signing anything. And have a COMPETENT lawyer review the lease. It doesn't cost much for a simple transaction like that. Remember, as a general rule, lending institutions do not loan money to buy land, so you should be able to leverage into something and be able to handle it financially. Write it up so that if you default the seller cannot come against you personally for a deficiency judgment. (Jurisdictions vary) Get an option to renew, but you should be able to pay it off relatively soon. (I know, it's a shock to actually own the place a person lives on, but some people can handle it.)

Focus on soil, soil, soil, and water, water, water, as well as clearly defined boundaries so you don't get into a boundary line dispute. Figure out how the land drains during different times of the year. A woodlot is nice, and a stream or creek is nice, but not necessary, and may even invite intruders. You can't beat a good well. Check out the access and if the road into the place is public/county, or if it is private. Find out if the road is plowed during the winter. Check out zoning if applicable, building codes, sanitary and enviromental. Don't get hung up on tactical considerations as if you're building fire base Trinity or something like that. Being who you are and what you believe, you probably will not be a good candidate for re-education or, better yet, "dialogue", so I'll be so bold as to say that you and you're family will go to your eternal reward, if applicable, early; or you'll be moving out with little or no notice on foot, so have good boots, etc. (Sounds nuts doesn't it? ("Light in the ass" is how we used to refer to in the old days.)) (You place might even be seized because you're just another damn Krulak that won't knuckle under.)

There is no being "grey" or being under the radar or thinking that any of us are going to make it through this without taking casualties. Lots of casualties. 'Nuff said. The criminals in government and their fellow travelers know who you are and where you live, and they hate you.

Betrayal being the oldest theme in the human experience, don't expect loyalty from anyone, family included. That's just the way it is.

Forget about the "elect" Christian Zionist Roman Catholic hating Survivalblog "American Redoubt" Calvinists who are so hooked on their religious supremacism, and themselves, that they are convincing people to move to the intermountain west where the soil is poor to nonexistent for the most part, water is very scarce, decent jobs are few, and as folks say in Montana, it can be "poverty with a view". And remember the new player in all of this. Drones. Lots and lots of drones. Piece of cake for the central government keeping track of us out here. And another piece of cake to kill us off. (Say, how about them Afghans? Something to learn there??

Stick with your family and avoid alliances unless and until it becomes absolutely necessary. Then you won't have to deal with annoying, non-essential issues like hurt feelings, who drank the last beer? etc.

Get an amateur radio license, or at least learn how to operate on VHF and HF (Very High Frequency; High Frequency); and learn morse code, even if it's very, very slow. People who won't do this are lazy and it's a good indicator of their motivation, and I won't go near them. It's big deal, like knowing how to keep you rifle operating and your feet in good shape.

Admittedly, I'm a horse's backside most of the time, but my ego, the prophecy business and boogie men aside, and just looking at the facts, we are pinned down so to speak, and day to day it is "danger close". You do not have time to begin courting people, and even if you did, it's too high risk, distracting, and takes up too much time.

I was told to accept one's death in order to maximize one's chance of survival.
Sounds paradoxical, but it makes sense to me because then a person can think more clearly and act decisively. Who knows, you might end up being surprised.

Best regards to you and yours, and believe it or not, I can come across as normal in public.

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, and remember,
Deo Vindice

Maizar · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2012, 05:19:03 PM »

Quote from: Busillis

Quote from: Maizar
Don't be interesting!

You need to follow this advice. Since I've gotten here I've probably read more of your posts than anybody elses. :wink:

I've read that using Tor is not completely safe.

Thanks Busilis but I think these other guys with military background have some extra insights into the US scenario so their advice is good also. You are right. Tor is not completely secure, but I think of the analogy of a car in a parking lot. If you have a lock, no matter how pathetic, the thieves will still take the car next to yours because it has no lock at all.

People who they will target are those who are likely to make some kind of organized resistance. What they are after is evidence of organization, so communications logs and so on. They practice on 'terrorists', but their ultimate target will be ordinary citizens.

Graehame · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:23:28 AM »

Deo Vindice-- Wow.

"If you can't secure a couple of acres by yourself then you spent too much time in the military taking orders and not enough time thinking for yourself."

You might have assumed that anyone who can afford to shuttle 2-3 people per year back & forth to SE Alaska every 2-3 years & spend 3-4 months each trip away from our jobs, living in the back country, can afford to buy a couple of acres. It isn't lack of resources that inspired me to post the message that I did, but an awareness that resources are limited & time is short. Every penny that we can save on purchasing land can be invested in other critical resources & infrastructure.

"I'm a lawyer. And a former U.S. Marine who is ready to head for Chile. It's over here in the former republic..."

To a large extent I agree with you. It's over. But I'm not sure that the political history of-- excuse me-- but Chile? It just doesn't give me reason to think things will be a whole lot better there. I've lived all over the world, & when you come right down to it the culture & political climate in the U.S. are still 'way better than anywhere else in the world, & they're likely to remain so for some time to come.

I wasn't gonna say this, since I'm open to alternatives, but our Plan A right now involves moving to SE Alaska, where we have extensive experience. It's a roadless area where access is by boat or by float plane, low taxes, minimal gun control laws, favorable home schooling laws, & very much a climate of you leave me alone & I'll leave you alone. There is no "fusion center" for the collection of intel on U.S. citizens, & very little federal involvement in law enforcement (except for the US Forestry Service & the USCG).

"It's easy to find land."

...but suitable land is another matter.

"Being who you are and what you believe...I'll be so bold as to say that you and you're family will go to your eternal reward, if applicable, early; or you'll be moving out with little or no notice on foot, so have good boots, etc."

It sounds as if you're saying when the stuff hits the fan, we've had it. While that's an outcome we all face, I think we're a little better-prepared than you suggest. If things turn to excrement suddenly, before the move, then yeah-- we'll be in a hurt. So will we all who aren't already positioned on suitable land. But if it happens gradually, or after the move, then we'll be fine. We have pre-positioned resources at a storage unit outside the city & a way to get there, & we have plenty of experience evacuating. We lived in the New Orleans area for 8 years, including Hurricane Katrina.

"There is no being 'grey' or being under the radar or thinking that any of us are going to make it through this without taking casualties. Lots of casualties."

In the Lower 48 that is probably true. In the remote hinterlands of Alaska, much less so. I'm willing to evaluate a retreat in the Lower 48 States that I specified in my original post-- Idaho, Wyoming, & Montana-- & if it's far enough off the beaten track, then maybe.

"The criminals in government and their fellow travelers know who you are and where you live, and they hate you."

Yeah. Sucks, don't it?

"Forget about the 'elect' Christian Zionist Roman Catholic hating Survivalblog 'American Redoubt' Calvinists who are so hooked on their religious supremacism, and themselves, that they are convincing people to move to the intermountain west where the soil is poor to nonexistent for the most part, water is very scarce, decent jobs are few..."

I see you're familiar with Survivalblog. Unlike you, I regard the 'American Redoubt' plan of James Wesley Rawles as a reasonable, if not an optimum response to the situation. And Rawles himself, although a Calvinist, comes across as a well-informed survivalist. Have you any evidence that he hates Catholics?

"And remember the new player in all of this. Drones. Lots and lots of drones."

They are never far from my thoughts, which is another reason why I lean towards SE Alaska. Lots more ground for the drones to cover, lots more trees for them to try to see thru, requiring them to get closer, & lots less ambient noise to cover their engine sounds when they do. But best of all, in SE Alaska we'll be entirely off the grid. No utlity hookups, no address, the ability to camoflage our structures to blend into the terrain, & become more or less entirely self-sufficient.

"Stick with your family and avoid alliances unless and until it becomes absolutely necessary."

It's a tough call. 100% OPSEC & avoid most of the problems, or compromise OPSEC to build relationships & broaden our resources? The thing that has encouraged me in the direction of trying to build relationships is a realization that OPSEC can never be 100%, coupled with the truly daunting size of the task before us. Anything we can do to reduce the size of that task & increase the speed with which it can be accomplished is worth it, in my view.

"Admittedly, I'm a horse's backside most of the time..."

Yeah, but you can admit it. That goes a long way.

"You do not have time to begin courting people, and even if you did, it's too high risk, distracting, and takes up too much time."

That's your opinion. I think we have about 5 years before things start getting really bad. If this cooperative retreat concept doesn't work out over the next year or so then we'll be moving to Alaska in April of 2013, & the cooperative retreat idea will go back on the shelf.

Now to other matters. What led you to consider Chile, why do you consider that a superior strategy, & are you open to alternatives?

Graehame · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2012, 12:29:02 AM »

Quote from: Maizar

I think of the analogy of a car in a parking lot. If you have a lock, no matter how pathetic, the thieves will still take the car next to yours because it has no lock at all.

Quote from: Maizar

People who they will target are those who are likely to make some kind of organized resistance. What they are after is evidence of organization... They practice on 'terrorists', but their ultimate target will be ordinary citizens.

I believe these 2 statements to be precisely accurate.

In particular, those who are familiar with the activities of the 72 "fusion centers" across the country-- multijurisdictional task forces gathering poorly evaluated intel on US citizens; & those who are familiar with DHS-sponsored training for law enforcement personnel can see the patterns emerging.

Maizar · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2012, 01:12:46 AM »

At the very minimum, half an acre of good, arable land is actually sufficient for nearly complete self sufficiency, given enough rainfall capture and ideally an aquifer. The only problem is getting materials for composting. A little bit of networking and bartering can solve that problem. Networking with neighbors improves your security and can serve as an early warning system.

Graehame · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2012, 06:11:29 AM »

Quote from: Maizar

At the very minimum, half an acre of good, arable land is actually sufficient for nearly complete self sufficiency...

Not with my brood :). 3 sons, wives/fiances, 3 grandkids, more on the way, & the possibility of being joined by a daughter, her husband, & their kids, plus possible in-laws. I've seen some evidence of urban & suburban homesteads with truly phenomenal yields, but I'm afraid that with my crew half an acre just won't cut it.

Maizar · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2012, 06:36:50 AM »

Quote from: Graehame

Quote from: Maizar
At the very minimum, half an acre of good, arable land is actually sufficient for nearly complete self sufficiency...

Not with my brood :). 3 sons, wives/fiances, 3 grandkids, more on the way, & the possibility of being joined by a daughter, her husband, & their kids, plus possible in-laws. I've seen some evidence of urban & suburban homesteads with truly phenomenal yields, but I'm afraid that with my crew half an acre just won't cut it.

Yes, good point. However there are some threads on here and good sources elsewhere on how to get high yield from small acreage. High intensity organic farming is still in its infancy.

Deo Vindice · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2012, 11:26:34 AM »

Quote from: Graehame

Deo Vindice-- Wow.

"If you can't secure a couple of acres by yourself then you spent too much time in the military taking orders and not enough time thinking for yourself."

You might have assumed that anyone who can afford to shuttle 2-3 people per year back & forth to SE Alaska every 2-3 years & spend 3-4 months each trip away from our jobs, living in the back country, can afford to buy a couple of acres. It isn't lack of resources that inspired me to post the message that I did, but an awareness that resources are limited & time is short. Every penny that we can save on purchasing land can be invested in other critical resources & infrastructure.

"I'm a lawyer. And a former U.S. Marine who is ready to head for Chile. It's over here in the former republic..."

To a large extent I agree with you. It's over. But I'm not sure that the political history of-- excuse me-- but Chile? It just doesn't give me reason to think things will be a whole lot better there. I've lived all over the world, & when you come right down to it the culture & political climate in the U.S. are still 'way better than anywhere else in the world, & they're likely to remain so for some time to come.

I wasn't gonna say this, since I'm open to alternatives, but our Plan A right now involves moving to SE Alaska, where we have extensive experience. It's a roadless area where access is by boat or by float plane, low taxes, minimal gun control laws, favorable home schooling laws, & very much a climate of you leave me alone & I'll leave you alone. There is no "fusion center" for the collection of intel on U.S. citizens, & very little federal involvement in law enforcement (except for the US Forestry Service & the USCG).

"It's easy to find land."

...but suitable land is another matter.

"Being who you are and what you believe...I'll be so bold as to say that you and you're family will go to your eternal reward, if applicable, early; or you'll be moving out with little or no notice on foot, so have good boots, etc."

It sounds as if you're saying when the stuff hits the fan, we've had it. While that's an outcome we all face, I think we're a little better-prepared than you suggest. If things turn to excrement suddenly, before the move, then yeah-- we'll be in a hurt. So will we all who aren't already positioned on suitable land. But if it happens gradually, or after the move, then we'll be fine. We have pre-positioned resources at a storage unit outside the city & a way to get there, & we have plenty of experience evacuating. We lived in the New Orleans area for 8 years, including Hurricane Katrina.

"There is no being 'grey' or being under the radar or thinking that any of us are going to make it through this without taking casualties. Lots of casualties."

In the Lower 48 that is probably true. In the remote hinterlands of Alaska, much less so. I'm willing to evaluate a retreat in the Lower 48 States that I specified in my original post-- Idaho, Wyoming, & Montana-- & if it's far enough off the beaten track, then maybe.

"The criminals in government and their fellow travelers know who you are and where you live, and they hate you."

Yeah. Sucks, don't it?

"Forget about the 'elect' Christian Zionist Roman Catholic hating Survivalblog 'American Redoubt' Calvinists who are so hooked on their religious supremacism, and themselves, that they are convincing people to move to the intermountain west where the soil is poor to nonexistent for the most part, water is very scarce, decent jobs are few..."

I see you're familiar with Survivalblog. Unlike you, I regard the 'American Redoubt' plan of James Wesley Rawles as a reasonable, if not an optimum response to the situation. And Rawles himself, although a Calvinist, comes across as a well-informed survivalist. Have you any evidence that he hates Catholics?

"And remember the new player in all of this. Drones. Lots and lots of drones."

They are never far from my thoughts, which is another reason why I lean towards SE Alaska. Lots more ground for the drones to cover, lots more trees for them to try to see thru, requiring them to get closer, & lots less ambient noise to cover their engine sounds when they do. But best of all, in SE Alaska we'll be entirely off the grid. No utlity hookups, no address, the ability to camoflage our structures to blend into the terrain, & become more or less entirely self-sufficient.

"Stick with your family and avoid alliances unless and until it becomes absolutely necessary."

It's a tough call. 100% OPSEC & avoid most of the problems, or compromise OPSEC to build relationships & broaden our resources? The thing that has encouraged me in the direction of trying to build relationships is a realization that OPSEC can never be 100%, coupled with the truly daunting size of the task before us. Anything we can do to reduce the size of that task & increase the speed with which it can be accomplished is worth it, in my view.

"Admittedly, I'm a horse's backside most of the time..."

Yeah, but you can admit it. That goes a long way.

"You do not have time to begin courting people, and even if you did, it's too high risk, distracting, and takes up too much time."

That's your opinion. I think we have about 5 years before things start getting really bad. If this cooperative retreat concept doesn't work out over the next year or so then we'll be moving to Alaska in April of 2013, & the cooperative retreat idea will go back on the shelf.

Now to other matters. What led you to consider Chile, why do you consider that a superior strategy, & are you open to alternatives?

From Deo Vindice:
I think Alaska can be a good venue if a person can get a foothold and keep it. Sounds like you've got a good crew to make a life up there. I've been there on business and it was very impressive.
I thought about Chile because of the fact that it is @70% Roman Catholic according to the CIA factbook, and other things I've read. Of course, what Catholic means these days is a good question. Although I'm not opus dei I understand that they have significant influence there, and it seems to me that at least they can throw a punch when it comes to standing up for the faith. But then again, I really have no idea of what I'm talking about when it comes to opus dei. I guess I respect the devotion I've seen in latino's and if Chile (and Uruguay) are still pretty Catholic I'd submit that they are worth looking at. Terrain and water in Chile seemed ok, and an adequate infrastructure; it also seems to be off the "big picture" board - at least for now. So maybe it's a good place to hunker down. I may be way off though.

I got a bellyfull of the military and have had the same with respect to government and that is why I am so cynical. The fact that the last 3 chairmen of the joint chiefs have been "catholic" has been extremely disillusioning to me. (Pace, Mullen, and Dempsey). I ate every bowl of compost that was served up to me through school, the service, etc., and look at where we are as families, a church, and as a society. The sanctimonious "pay, pray and obey" crap has just turned my stomach totally inside out. And it still goes on when we see "catholic" colleges pimping young people for outrageous student loans and their rotc programs providing company grade officers for the Israeli-American wars of agression. (Oh boy, there I go again. I sure have gotten my backside chewed more than once for "just not understanding" how bad the muslims are and how I have got to learn how to hate them - like the Hun, the Jap, the gook, etc. (I know many, many people disagree with me on this.)

I simply have nothing more in common with the index of american mythologies and beliefs, including the old time worn nonsensical reply from people that "it's still the best . . . in the world", etc. We are neck high in the blood of innocent and defenseless unborn children and when it's open season on them anything goes.

You're pointed in the right direction and I respect what you're doing for your family and the salvation of your souls. It would be nice to have coffee together.

Some morning relatively soon I expect that we will wake up and things will be very, very different; and not in a good sense. God respects free will. We've brought it upon ourselves. As the saying goes, "better a year early than a day late" when it comes to being ready to go to ground zero.
Press on.

Maizar · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2012, 04:21:31 AM »

Best places to be during World War II? At the far corners of the earth, and pretty much nowhere else. This is going to apply again in future wars, because the geopolitical map just does not change. Wars are always over resources and routes.

The worst places have been areas which have major industry in the region, or are mining rich areas, or where infrastructure which is critical to the national interest exists, or on the way to these places.

Pick a nice, useless, underdeveloped and otherwise boring corner of the planet. Why? Because that area will have lived as it does now for a very long time, with a steady and unflinching growth rate, and not being on the way to anywhere interesting, no tycoon will have built a tollway through it, and no military has decided to defend it with some kind of gigantic base that serves as a big Google Maps target for a warhead. Being underdeveloped means it will probably be independent too when it comes to infrastructure. If people know how to live without public water, 24/7 electricity and occasionally isolated food supply lines, then they are people who be a help and not a hindrance in a crisis.

And steer CLEAR of Opus Dei! They are trouble. We will not solve the scourge of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ by founding religious orders that are run in the same way!

Graehame · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2012, 05:40:26 AM »

Quote from: Deo Vindice

Although I'm not opus dei I understand that they have significant influence there, and it seems to me that at least they can throw a punch when it comes to standing up for the faith. But then again, I really have no idea of what I'm talking about when it comes to opus dei.

Maizar's opinion, delivered above, reflects the fact that Opus Dei has come under considerable criticism. Personally, based on my own investigation, I think much of that criticism is unfounded, but it isn't a very big issue with me.

Quote from: Deo Vindice

So maybe it's (Chile) a good place to hunker down. I may be way off though.

You raised the point of what it means to be a Catholic these days. It's my understanding that in much of Latin American liberation theology has taken root, which is a radical, ultra-liberal-- I'd say even non-Catholic-- arm of the Catholic Church. From your posts I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Quote from: Deo Vindice

The fact that the last 3 chairmen of the joint chiefs have been "catholic" has been extremely disillusioning to me. (Pace, Mullen, and Dempsey).

I know exactly what you mean. Kinda like the fact that the most prominent Catholic family in the U.S. is-- excuse me-- the Kennedys? I wouldn't even call them Catholic. I've gotten in trouble for saying that political liberalism is incompatible with Catholic doctrine, but I firmly believe it.

Quote from: Deo Vindice

The sanctimonious "pay, pray and obey" crap has just turned my stomach totally inside out.

Couldn't agree more.

Quote from: Deo Vindice

I sure have gotten my backside chewed more than once for "just not understanding" how bad the muslims are and how I have got to learn how to hate them...

It isn't that we have to hate them, Deo-- it's that they hate us. Islam is literally full of people-- kids, most of 'em-- who look forward eagerly to the chance to blow themselves up to kill a few of us. How many Christians do you know who'd commit ѕυιcιdє to kill a few Muslims?

Quote from: Deo Vindice

We are neck high in the blood of innocent and defenseless unborn children and when it's open season on them anything goes.

Unfortunately you are exactly correct.

Quote from: Deo Vindice

It would be nice to have coffee together. Some morning relatively soon I expect that we will wake up and things will be very, very different; and not in a good sense.

Yeah. But in lieu of coffee, I've posted a thread over in the "Crisis in the Church" forum I'd like you to have a look at. It's heavily theological & you don't strike me as a very theological sort of a guy, but it predicts right when things are likely to start getting really, seriously bad. The name of the thread is "End Times Prophecy". Tell me what you think. (You too, Maizar.)