Author Topic: Response to Genesis 12:3  (Read 940 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2019, 08:21:11 PM »
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  • I'll be sure to throw that in if it becomes necessary.  

    I just spent more time than I'd like to admit composing a response to a (new) poster who stated the following:
    I have read, and am in full agreement, that one must know, and understand the the Old Testament, and the Law of the Old Testament, in order to fully, and properly, understand the New Testament and what it is saying.
    Unfortunately, most ignore the OT, and focus on strictly the NT, and in doing so lose much valuable information and insight.

    Again, my response was heavily influenced by the judaism.is sight, but it still takes time to put all of it together.  

    Adding to that, it's me versus five or more Protestants at the moment (only one of my co-religionists has dared stick his head up, but he abruptly left).  I'll let you know if/when I convert any of them.  :laugh1:

    One thing that occurred to me... the way these Protestants refer to "Israel" when talking about both the modern-day nation state founded in 1948, is the same as that as found in the Old Testament.  It's like naming a privately-owned reserve bank the Federal Reserve; for the most part, people just think that since it's got the word "Federal" in it, and it prints the cash, it MUST be run by the government.  Same concept applies to naming the modern-day nation-state 'Israel'.
    Exactly so! Call it "Counterfeit Israel" and they will go apoplectic. I rather like referring to "The Synagogue of Satan's MidEast Project."

    You have to force them to keep their eye on the ball. No sane Christian (= Catholic) says "disregard" the Old Testament, but one must unequivocally state the Mosaic Covenant is dead; it cannot save. Don't let them get away with their "disregard" straw man argument.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #46 on: Today at 08:46:56 AM »
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  • The thread on the other forum has been quiet these past few days.  Until today.  Which is a bit unusual, as threads over there either burn strong and suddenly die out, or don't burn at all.

    This, which was not responsive to any particular post I had made, is from the guy who bragged he got an "A" in debate (and therefore you should listen to him!):

    Quote
    The whole underlying problem here with you, Mr. [Bonaventure] trying to devoid my statements, is that just because the word of God said one thing, it doesn't mean it has one meaning and that's it, it is to be taken in context of other scriptures and to be interpreted in light of other scriptures.

    A perfect example, when it is written that salvation is a GIFT and without works, and seems to be contradictory to other verses that say works are important - Yes works are important and they are a sign of believers. But they are not required to go to heaven.

    Take the two thieves that were on the cross with Jesus, he told one that today he will be in paradise (heaven) with Jesus. He had NO TIME to unhook himself, go do a bunch of works and guess that it will be enough, and he didn't have time to go be baptized. So that shatters all of that. And I could post examples that shatter everything you post but I don't have that kind of time. It is not going to glorify Christ, or do any good really.

    So Mr. [Bonaventure],
    I have no problem with you, I am not angry with you, I can go to another thread and still laugh at your pics, or give you a thanks.

    What this all is, is mental masturbation. I do not wish to continue some fruitless argument with you and I'm not saying the scriptures you post do not say what they mean.

    But they, and all scripture is to be interpreted in light of other scriptures.

    The only thing I have to say is your interpretation of Matthew 24 is not correct by any standard. Even though there was "destruction" in the area, the whole chapter is a prophecy of the last days when Jesus would return. He did not return "a few decades" after his Crucifixion. It is said in Mark 13:29, "So Ye in like manner, when Ye shall see these things come to pass (all events together in all writings of the apostles in the books I mention, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), know that it (his return) is nigh, even at the doors". Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all parallel texts of the same last days events. Some things are found in others, they need each other to paint the complete picture, they are not wrong on their own, but they are also not complete on their own either. One event happening, or even several or many events happening at a time does not necessarily mean a prophecy is fulfilled, and certain prophecies need to be fulfilled before others can be, every event written has to be done for a prophecy to be fulfilled. The "abomination of desolation" was not in the temple "a few decades after his Crucifixion so it was not a possible fulfillment of Matthew 24. Another perfect example of scripture needing to be interpreted in light of other scripture.

    From the KJV bible, translated directly from the Greek and Hebrew:

    "Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their faith in him." Proverbs 30:5

    Yes, I am guilty of using some garbage translation off the internet when talking to you late at night that I Googled, and I didn't get my bible, sorry. The KJV version by the way is a direct translation from the Greek/Hebrew, any word not found in the original scriptures is in italics. There are no verses missing in it, or my Strong's concordance.

    But by now I know you, your interpretation against me is, I am a lazy protestant, don't know scripture, don't know jack [censored] don't take the time to do it right, etc lol. Doesn't mater if I worked 14 hours that day, have a migraine, have a pet dying, making other life changing decisions, I could be in the ER with minutes to live and typing something, etc, you will always manipulate some minor detail not in it's absolute completeness or context to try and slam me. Your twisting scripture in this thread arguing against me in my opinion, are exactly like the impeachment trial going on, it's a freaking joke lol. I'm out.

    I like that last paragraph.  First, he's taken my responses to his less-than-adequate posts as a personal attack.  Second, he attempts to diffuse his prior, inadequate comments by introducing a several excuses as to why they were inadequate, but of course none of them apply as he clearly admitted he was just being lazy from the get-go. 

    Also note... he now refers to me with the 'Mr.' suffix! 



    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #47 on: Today at 09:40:38 AM »
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  • First, the context of the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments is the faithlessness of the Jews who repeatedly voided the Mosaic Covenant, rejected their Messiah and His New Covenant, and killed Him.

    Your interlocutor perverts and weaponizes "context" as Hoffman so perfectly encapsulated here:

    “‘Context’ is everything for the defenders of the Talmud. Fair enough. But by ‘context’ they do not mean taking into account the surrounding text, but rather submitting to Judaism’s own narrative about itself, which includes how it presents problem texts to non-Judaic audiences.... The rabbis even deny in many cases that there is a plain meaning.... It is enough that [the rabbi] states it and gentiles believe it; anything else is ‘antisemitic.’ This pattern of intimidation and thought control is repeated with monotonous effect, by thought cops and apologists for Judaism. It is a stock response intended to frighten off the opposition, premised mainly on the moral authority of the declarative sentences used by the ‘expert’ on Judaism. Debate (‘polemic’) on the part of informed skeptics is not permitted, since it constitutes the ‘misuse’ of a scholar’s knowledge of rabbinic texts. Debating tactics and polemical tools are reserved solely for rabbis and their allies, along with just a dash of permissible dissimulation to leaven the burden of swallowing the pottage. And when deception and ‘out of context’ statements serve to advance Judaism, they are all well and good....”

    Michael Hoffman, Judaism Discovered: A Study of the Anti-Biblical Religion of Racism, Self-Worship, Superstition, and Deceit. ISBN 13: 9780970378453 pages 137-138

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #48 on: Today at 09:56:30 AM »
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  • Second, his sola fide heresy.

    That the Good Thief showed remorse and was forgiven and in Heaven the same day does not negate the faith and works required. Neither does the example of the Good Thief negate the existence of Purgatory.

    The Good Thief not only showed remorse, but while in his own agony showed kindness towards Jesus Christ, God. Quite evidently, that act earned unique merit. Who among us today has the opportunity to give succor to Our Redeemer in His very moment of agony? One other person, the Bad Thief, had the same opportunity, but choose to abuse Our Redeemer. God may have judged the Good Thief sufficiently "clean" (no defiled thing enters Heaven) to enter Heaven immediately OR God may have judged the Good Thief needed the rest of the day in Purgatory (after all, we have reports that an hour in Purgatory seems as 30 years). We do not know which way God judged (Purgatory or not) except that same day the Good Thief deserved to be in Heaven for his act of kindness and succor.

    Hence, the example of the Good Thief reinforces (1) the special circumstance of the Good Thief's act and (2) the normative way to Heaven indeed requires good acts and faith:

    “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?” James 2:20-21

    “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 7:21

    “…But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17

    “And when he was gone forth into the way, a certain man running up and kneeling before him, asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may receive life everlasting?  And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.  Thou knowest the commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, bear not false witness, do no fraud, honour thy father and mother.  But he answering, said to him: Master, all these things I have observed from my youth. And Jesus looking on him, loved him, and said to him: One thing is wanting unto thee: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Mark 10:17-21

    “And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life?  And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.  Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.  Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth.  Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee: sell all whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.” Luke 18:18-22

    “Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.” John 8:51

    “You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.” John 15:14

    “Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God.  And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” John 5:28-29

    “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.” Galatians 5:6

    “…and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.” 1 Corinthians 13:2

    “Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation”  Phillipians 2:12

    “But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13

    “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.” James 2:14-18

    “…Who will render to every man according to his works.” Romans 2:6

    “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Romans 2:13

    “Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice.” Romans 6:16

    “Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.  For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.… For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God.  And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.” Romans 8:12-17

    “For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.  See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” Romans 11:21-22

    “And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.” Hebrews 5:9

    “Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.” Hebrews 12:14

    “Take heed to thyself and to doctrine: be earnest in them. For in doing this thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.” 1 Timothy 4:16

    “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will He render to every man according to his works.”  Matthew 16:27

    “For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.”  2 Corinthians 5:10

    “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Apocalypse 20:12

    “There shall not enter into it [Heaven] any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.” Apocalypse 21:27

    The unrighteous are condemned for failing to do good deeds. Matthew 25:31-46

    “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed. And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man’ s religion is vain. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one’s self unspotted from this world.” James 1-22-27

    “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19-21

    “Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.” 1 John 3:7


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Response to Genesis 12:3
    « Reply #49 on: Today at 10:03:46 AM »
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  • Third, I have no idea what he is driving at in his Matthew 24 digression.

    Fourth, it is amusing how quickly he excuses himself from the discussion.


     

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